Turkish knife

[Miyamoto]

Causcasian front?

[Tim Simmons]

Yes I think you might have it, look here,
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com...offensive.aspx

[Freddy]

Miyamoto, where did you find this pic ?

[erlikhan]

Very interesting! Can u pls show all of the sword? Does it have en suite mountings on scabbard or decoration on blade? I wonder if that is original or a later addition. Rivkin could perhaps have an idea about any possible Caucasian tribe with 6 pointed star ?

[Freddy]

I searched on the internet and found some other countries with a star and moon in their flag.

I found an old picture of an Egyptian flag with moon and 7 pointed star.

The flag of Azerbedjan shows a moon and an 8 pointed star.

Perhaps there's a country (in the Caucasus ?) which uses the symbol of an moon and a 6 pointed star. Who knows ?

[Rivkin]

Well, not being a specialist:

I've seen quite a lot of shashkas similar to one shown by Miyamoto. In my opinion, they all come from late XIX- early XX century, and may be represent some unknown military pattern (because they all have this 6 point star and crescent). On the other hand the quality of shashkas varies so...

Now to the symbolics - while 6 point star was videly used by turkish tribes, its use gradually decreased in favor of 5 and 8 point stars (turks, azeris, karachai, balkar).

6 point star is a symbol of Trabzon weaponry (afaik), but it is always depicted in a circle and without the crescent - as on yataghan's hilt that I attached to the message (btw it belonged to Lermontov. The blade was destroyed due to the soviet restrictions on "weapons".)

Now 6 point star, together with crescent and arrows is a symbol of Kabarda tribe (part of circassians). Ironically it is even persisted as part of ensignia of northern caucasus SS unit during WWII. Other adighes prefer to use 5 point stars.

6 point star with a crescent also have been heavily used in Ingushetia. It was also used by "jew-like" muslims in Karachai, and by a very small group of osethian muslisms.

Can it be a symbol of circassian units in Turkey ? I think more knowledgeble person has to be asked about it, since the symbol is somewhat too generic to pinpoint the exact origin.

I should also point out that six point star and a crescent was used by some of the russian pre-revolution troops from Uzbekistan.

[Tim Simmons]

I am going to complicate things further by focusing on the design of the guard/lamp bowl. To me it looks western European but objects do get exported and the French taste was and had been the fashion for a few centuries in Russia which in turn must have influenced the countries under the Tzarist regime but saying that the styles of metalwork from either Morocco or the Caucuses as shown on the shashka hilt, are not like the lamp bowl. This might narrow things down to a western front or eastern front and which Islamic troops fought there that would recognise a six pointed star and also most likely to have access to a French? bayonet. Or should I just shut up bearing in mind the yatagan type blade was used extensivly, I do not know. Tim

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Miyamoto

Causcasian front?

Beware!
This item is still active on e-bay and the fiersome Moderators are wide awake.

For a similar mistake I have been banned for 10 days.
Let's not discuss this shashka for a while.

[erlikhan]

Rivkin, 6 pointed star was always used by Trabzon or any other town in the Ottoman empire and other non Ottomanic Turks or perhaps other Moslems, as a talismanic symbol to bring good luck and fortune and perhaps even didnt decrease till the end of 19th c. The picture you attached is in that manner. 6 pointed star without a crescent. But what would surprize me only is to see it inside a crescent. I have seen crescent and 8 pointed star in Azeri kindjals(and their flag is still 8 p. ), and 5 p. in some others, but not a 6 pointed. So you say, you have seen a lot of shashkas with exactly that design - 6 p. star inside a crescent-, right? By Kabardins. But not other Circassians..Interesting info.
I guess you want to mean Karaims by "Jew like Moslems" .They are Turk in race and language and Jew in religion,whose population were quite large in Ukraine and Caucassia before WW2 German occupation, but very little now. I know them as merchants,and dont think they would have troops, militaristic symbols and productions. Could they have combined 6 p. star and the crescent to symbolize their special identity??And Uzbek troops with the same symbol? I would like to see if any picture is available.
regards

[Battara]

IN Rivkin's last picture, the 6 pointed star is called the Star of Solomon by Muslims. Somewhat talismanic.

[Rivkin]

Jew-likes is something more similar to turkish denmeh than to karaites - while the latter ones are a sect in judaism. Jew-like (zhukty) means someone who descends from a jew, preferrably on their male line.

The reason for their existance is that until very recently religious identification for most of caucasians was rather vague. People lived by clans, sharing the same male ancestry. Female ancestry did not account for anything (since women were almost in 100% taken from clans or nations different from that of the father).
As a result, clans were identified by their founder - chechens of georgian ancestry (gurj), georgians of chechen ancestry, abaza of svan ancestry etc.
Similar to this jew-like clans (for example Bagrations) are defined as the ones that were founded by jews.

I don't think this sword has much to do with them...
Concerning shashkas - unless this is the same shashka being resold over and over again, I've seen quite a lot of those.

[erlikhan]

Ah got it now. Like Sabetaists (donme) in Turkey. Anyway, if you think the sword has not much to do with them, then let's put point to the ethnical side of the subject as I 've learned continuing ethnical conversations in the forum mean increasing potential of unexpected trouble .

[Tim Simmons]

It would be helpful if some buff could come up with a list or map of the trench systems on the various fronts, then find which troops fought there that might use such national emblems. Then we could avoid raking embers. Tim

[ariel]

Originally Posted by erlikhan

Ah got it now. Like Sabetaists (donme) in Turkey. Anyway, if you think the sword has not much to do with them, then let's put point to the ethnical side of the subject as I 've learned continuing ethnical conversations in the forum mean increasing potential of unexpected trouble .

I do not think we shoud shy away from these discissions as long as they are helpful to the educational purpose of the Forum in terms of weapon/military discussions and do not degenerate into nationalistic/racist accusations.
Karaim and Donmeh are two different stories altogether.
Karaim are a purely Judaic sect that believes only in the written Torah (Pentateuch) and rejects later books and Rabbinical authorities such as Talmud (G'mara). Their ethnic origin is obscure. Some claim purely Jewish roots and their Turkic language a reflection of the point of their spread from the Crimea where they lived next door to the Tatars. Others suggest their descent from the Khazars (Turkic tribes living north of the Caspian and Black Seas) that converted to Judaism sometimes in the 9-10th century and spread west to Crimea and subsequently to Poland/Lithuania or east to North Caucasus (Tats, Nogais, Karachai etc). In both localities they maintained very militaristic way of life (see Trakai Castle in Lithuania). The Khazar origin is dubious because Karaim were present in medieval Spain in 10-11th centuries. Nevertheless, they were viewed as non-Jews by the Westerners to the point that Russian Tsars were very protective of them and the Nazis did not touch them at all.
Donmeh are the descendants of the real Jews: the followers of Sabbetai Zvi, a 17th century Jew who proclaimed himself a Messiah but converted to Islam as soon as the Ottoman Sultan offered him a choice between that and immediate decapitation. Donmeh in Turkey never were militarily oriented and stuck to trade/crafts. By the way, they supported Ataturk and that gave a ground to his enemies to claim that his mother must have been Jewish ("Not Mustafa, not Kemal and not even a Turk").
As Rivkin pointed out, the Royal Georgian Bagratid dynasty (Batonishvilis) claimed descent from a man named Smbat who was allegedly a leader of the Jews brought to the Caucasus (Armenia, mainly) by the Babylonians in 6th century BCE, after the destruction of the First Temple (the original Lost Tribes). True or not is unknown as the equally aristocratic Orbelianis claimed Chinese descent and Abashidzes, Abyssinian.
I went into this historical digression simply because it is impossible to understand the history of weapons without knowing the history of men who carried them. Quick example: ancient Kievan Russians carried typically Viking swords but their armour had major "Tatar" influence. Only by knowing that the Vikings were the earliest rulers of the Rus and that Kiev was established by the Khazars (Ki-ev means "place by the water" in Tats language) can we understand this strange and beautiful mix.