Curious Kastane - Thoughts?

derek · 9th June 2014, 08:48 PM

Very little taper to the blade, but blades from Ceylon can be strange animals.

Yes, you hit on the lotus and tendrils. I had a nice little kukri with a very similar theme on the bottom and it had the lions at the top. Same metals, silver alloy and brass. Gotta find that picture!

The animal on the pommel (lion, dragon, mythical water creature, whatever) is silver alloy with a fading gold wash. Its very polished.

I frequently troll the knives coming from China, especially on Ali express, and I guess I am doubtful they would tackle something so relatively obscure and put so much detail into it. This wouldn't be a mass produced item. There would be no money in it....unless someone tried to pass it off for a few thousand bucks. Hmmm.

spiral · 9th June 2014, 10:27 PM

mmm We will have to wait for others with experience I guess.

I think its almost a fantasy fake, {A dragon sword.} & if they make 100 for $20 each & they sell for a $100 each I would guess theve had a good result.

But Alex, Ariel, Charles, Artzi RS etc can comment on there perceptions of it & knowledge.

Truly hope I'm wrong & its some super rare valuable specimen.

spiral

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th June 2014, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

Very little taper to the blade, but blades from Ceylon can be strange animals.

Yes, you hit on the lotus and tendrils. I had a nice little kukri with a very similar theme on the bottom and it had the lions at the top. Same metals, silver alloy and brass. Gotta find that picture!

The animal on the pommel (lion, dragon, mythical water creature, whatever) is silver alloy with a fading gold wash. Its very polished.

I frequently troll the knives coming from China, especially on Ali express, and I guess I am doubtful they would tackle something so relatively obscure and put so much detail into it. This wouldn't be a mass produced item. There would be no money in it....unless someone tried to pass it off for a few thousand bucks. Hmmm.

Salaams Derek... I have to say the item is a copy... but may be either from Sri Lanka or India as a tourist sword.. It looks too worn/polished to be recent Chinese...but it could be... For sure then~ its not a real Kastane ... but it could be a belly dancer item. Often, however,they have inverted blades...to more easily balance on top of the performers head! ~ used in Belly Dancing in North Africa...Morocco etc...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

CharlesS · 10th June 2014, 08:02 PM

To my eye the blade looks pretty badly produced...but actually many outstanding kastanes have very poor blades as these types are "to be seen" status pieces.

The more troubling thing is the 'silver' work which, again, to my eye looks "pressed" or molded, perhaps even cast and then finished. Some tourist items of this type, that is, with pressed or molded alloy metal, can be seen coming out of Indonesia.

I would not dare to speculate too much on this piece without actually having it in hand, but from what I can see, I agree with the conclusion that it may be some sort or mass produced tourist mock-up of a kastane. Like so many things of that type, they can look darn good from a distance!

spiral · 10th June 2014, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

It looks too worn/polished to be recent Chinese...but it could be...

Its amazing what a machine buffer will wear away & polish....

.

Could be Indian but looks to my eye to be made by someone, just copying something they had no conception off. Looks Chinese to my eye, but I think the Indian would do it better... But I could be wrong.

I seem to recall Gavin had valuable input on the Kastane? & has seem many fakes in the auctions he peruses as well.

Hopefully he will look in.

Spiral

derek · 11th June 2014, 02:30 PM

Well,
I decided to go back to the seller and ask him for more details about this thing. Turns out it was part of a lot that was sold for a widow who brought it back from Sri Lanka with her husband some years ago. Apparently they had some difficulty getting their purchases shipped back at that time.

So, I have seen a piha that I was pretty certain was a later reproduction. By that I mean produced sometime after 1815 and the disbanding of the Royal Workshops. If the information is accurate, this would be the first kastane that I would call a later tourist repro from Sri Lanka, but it is true enough to the originals in form and detail that I could believe it.

The pics aren't doing it justice. It's a pretty little wall hanger.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th June 2014, 07:18 PM

Please see library for Kastane ...or hit http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kastane

David · 11th June 2014, 07:39 PM

Derek, i'm pretty sure you are on the right track viewing this example as a later tourist quality repro. I think that if you spend enough time looking at actual kastane in the thread Ibrahiim just linked to you will see that the level of attention to detail in the real kastanes seen there is far more intensive than the hilt details on your example. While the blades on true kastane are often not of high quality, being meant mostly for status display, the dress is usually impeccably detailed and of a very high level of craftsmanship. Ibrahiim suggested the possibility that this could be a dance kastane for belly dancing, but that seems highly unlikely to me. Pictures can be deceptive, but i just don't see that your example could possibly have the kind of balance necessary for use in belly dancing where the back edge of the sword is balances on the head, hips, etc. during the act of the dance. Those blades are also generally longer and curved as Ibrahiim has already pointed out. But as you say, it should be a very nice wall hanger.

derek · 11th June 2014, 09:07 PM

Hi David,
Agreed. Belly Dancing swords are normally curved for balancing on the head.

Keep in mind the example in the thread above is off the charts in terms of detail and quality. Artzi has offered a few that were close to that quality in the past, but you don't see them often. Most are of the more average kind.

I have owned 2 other kastanes that are much more typical (still have one) and they are plain by comparison. Still beautiful, but far less ornate. In fact, I saw this week that there is a very typical example on auction now.

I also currently have 25 piha kaetta of various sizes and quality. I started the pihakaetta.com site years ago, when I had time for that stuff

Some are so ornate and delicate that I hate to handle them. Others are more plain and "utilitarian" by comparison. The quality of the work on them also varies - some, not a lot.

Among that lot I have a few I would describe as weirdos. They just don't seem to represent the Sinhalese art form, but one of those was purchased directly from a gallery in Colombo, and the blade is definitely old. Old stuff can't talk, so we play detective, which is half the fun.

Jim, great thread, I was reading through it earlier this week.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

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9th June 2014, 08:48 PM	#1
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Very little taper to the blade, but blades from Ceylon can be strange animals. Yes, you hit on the lotus and tendrils. I had a nice little kukri with a very similar theme on the bottom and it had the lions at the top. Same metals, silver alloy and brass. Gotta find that picture! The animal on the pommel (lion, dragon, mythical water creature, whatever) is silver alloy with a fading gold wash. Its very polished. I frequently troll the knives coming from China, especially on Ali express, and I guess I am doubtful they would tackle something so relatively obscure and put so much detail into it. This wouldn't be a mass produced item. There would be no money in it....unless someone tried to pass it off for a few thousand bucks. Hmmm.

9th June 2014, 10:27 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmm We will have to wait for others with experience I guess. I think its almost a fantasy fake, {A dragon sword.} & if they make 100 for $20 each & they sell for a $100 each I would guess theve had a good result. But Alex, Ariel, Charles, Artzi RS etc can comment on there perceptions of it & knowledge. Truly hope I'm wrong & its some super rare valuable specimen. spiral

10th June 2014, 08:02 PM	#4
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	To my eye the blade looks pretty badly produced...but actually many outstanding kastanes have very poor blades as these types are "to be seen" status pieces. The more troubling thing is the 'silver' work which, again, to my eye looks "pressed" or molded, perhaps even cast and then finished. Some tourist items of this type, that is, with pressed or molded alloy metal, can be seen coming out of Indonesia. I would not dare to speculate too much on this piece without actually having it in hand, but from what I can see, I agree with the conclusion that it may be some sort or mass produced tourist mock-up of a kastane. Like so many things of that type, they can look darn good from a distance!

11th June 2014, 02:30 PM	#6
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Well, I decided to go back to the seller and ask him for more details about this thing. Turns out it was part of a lot that was sold for a widow who brought it back from Sri Lanka with her husband some years ago. Apparently they had some difficulty getting their purchases shipped back at that time. So, I have seen a piha that I was pretty certain was a later reproduction. By that I mean produced sometime after 1815 and the disbanding of the Royal Workshops. If the information is accurate, this would be the first kastane that I would call a later tourist repro from Sri Lanka, but it is true enough to the originals in form and detail that I could believe it. The pics aren't doing it justice. It's a pretty little wall hanger.

11th June 2014, 07:18 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Please see library for Kastane ...or hit http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kastane

11th June 2014, 07:39 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Derek, i'm pretty sure you are on the right track viewing this example as a later tourist quality repro. I think that if you spend enough time looking at actual kastane in the thread Ibrahiim just linked to you will see that the level of attention to detail in the real kastanes seen there is far more intensive than the hilt details on your example. While the blades on true kastane are often not of high quality, being meant mostly for status display, the dress is usually impeccably detailed and of a very high level of craftsmanship. Ibrahiim suggested the possibility that this could be a dance kastane for belly dancing, but that seems highly unlikely to me. Pictures can be deceptive, but i just don't see that your example could possibly have the kind of balance necessary for use in belly dancing where the back edge of the sword is balances on the head, hips, etc. during the act of the dance. Those blades are also generally longer and curved as Ibrahiim has already pointed out. But as you say, it should be a very nice wall hanger.

11th June 2014, 09:07 PM	#9
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi David, Agreed. Belly Dancing swords are normally curved for balancing on the head. Keep in mind the example in the thread above is off the charts in terms of detail and quality. Artzi has offered a few that were close to that quality in the past, but you don't see them often. Most are of the more average kind. I have owned 2 other kastanes that are much more typical (still have one) and they are plain by comparison. Still beautiful, but far less ornate. In fact, I saw this week that there is a very typical example on auction now. I also currently have 25 piha kaetta of various sizes and quality. I started the pihakaetta.com site years ago, when I had time for that stuff Some are so ornate and delicate that I hate to handle them. Others are more plain and "utilitarian" by comparison. The quality of the work on them also varies - some, not a lot. Among that lot I have a few I would describe as weirdos. They just don't seem to represent the Sinhalese art form, but one of those was purchased directly from a gallery in Colombo, and the blade is definitely old. Old stuff can't talk, so we play detective, which is half the fun. Jim, great thread, I was reading through it earlier this week. Thanks for the feedback, everyone.