A cup hilt sword for coments.

[dana_w]

Sorry, I should have attributed condition (C) to "Juan J. Perez at swordforum.com . This is an exact quote:

"This sort of swords differs mainly from the peninsular civilian cup-hilts not only for their cruder manufacture and broader blades, but in the absence of the arms of the hilt that hold the cup in the original form of this sword.

However, this is not only a feature of swords from the Spanish colonies in America, but from Portuguese ones, and even from Portugal mainland itself, where this sort of cup-hilt was made regulation for cavalry units. This is always an option that should not be discarded."

I hesitate to say anything about Portugal

So Jim, to the list, should I add:

(D) They seldom have 'guardopolvo' (ostensibly = dust guard)

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Dana, I had forgotten Juan's remarkable studies on Spanish arms, and to be honest I did not recall the interim part of the crossguard across the inner part of the cup being absent (I need to find pics again but it seems the bar extends across in the ones I've seen. As far as I have known, the straight quillon guard essentially sits atop or in the top of the cup.

I do know that the continuation of the cuphilt phenomenon continued as noted into the 19th century in the colonial regions, and I have even seen 'court' type cuphilts with the traditional bowl and a vestigial crossguard across its base as a straight bar! obviously entirely redundant.

[M ELEY]

Excellent followup questions and answers. Just wanted to add the grip materials and shape can also be defining factors of the colonial types (I.e. Carribean or New World). In particular, horn grips with crisscross patterning is often seen, as are 'bulging' grips as seen on colonial espada and cuphilts.

Does anyone want to argue the 'mushroom-shaped' pommel styles as being colonial? Peterson used this one as a tip of the hat towards Spanish Main and I tend to believe him-

[dana_w]

This is the only Spanish Colonial Cup Hilt I own that has a horn grip. As you can see the line patterns on this one run in parallel. I guess this grip could also be described at "bulging".

I'll add a "mushroom-shaped" pommel style example when I have a chance to photograph one.

The photos that I have posted here are copyright (c) 2014 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

...This is the only Spanish Colonial Cup Hilt I own that has a horn grip...

Why not Portuguese ?

[dana_w]

That is a good question Fernando. Maybe you could help me with a list that would exclude the possibility of a possible Colonial Cup Hilt being Portuguese.

I noticed that the cup on your has rivets, but not mounting hardware attached.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

That is a good question Fernando. Maybe you could help me with a list that would exclude the possibility of a possible Colonial Cup Hilt being Portuguese.

I noticed that the cup on your has rivets, but not mounting hardware attached.

I don't have the luggage to list details to differentiate cuphilts from being Spanish, Portuguese or Colonial, Dana. I play a bit by ear. One thing i learned is that Portuguese and Spanish are often so alike that the name convenientely given by connoisseurs is Penisular ... which is not surprising, due to, during a large period in which these swords were in fashion, Portugal was under Spanish control; also neighbourhood cultural convergence and all that.
The only solid difference that i have learned is, when present, the weklding of the quillons to the bowl instead of the internal securing arms, normaly fixed by screws. Another alternative,also when present, is the mark of the smith or the language in which the eventual inscriptions in the blade are printed ... but even this is passive of failure, as swords could be made in one country (Spain) with inscriptions in the others language, either by clients demand or just for fashion.
Concerning Colonial variants, i guess they are often more 'folkloric', made and decorated in a non sophisticated or rustic manner. But as i say, i am playing by ear and basicaly depend on the seller's assumptions ... when they appear to make sense to me.
The silver rivets in mine are not for fixing the bowl but only for show off, like the trimmings in the grip.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

[I]"This sort of swords differs mainly from the peninsular civilian cup-hilts not only for their cruder manufacture and broader blades, but in the absence of the arms of the hilt that hold the cup in the original form of this sword.

However, this is not only a feature of swords from the Spanish colonies in America, but from Portuguese ones, and even from Portugal mainland itself, where this sort of cup-hilt was made regulation for cavalry units. This is always an option that should not be discarded....

Absolutely right !!! One way to differentiate Portuguese from Spanish cuphilt swords when present, other than consider them genericaly Peninsular