A Crudely FAKED Wall Gun, in the Style of ca. 1500!

cornelistromp · 9th May 2014, 06:53 PM

Hi Michael,

Here, I strongly agree.

the proportion of counterfeits in medieval and Renaissance swords is maybe even higher.

it is incredible that this can continue......

it also would be a good step in the right direction if the auction houses would keep a blacklist of providers of forgeries and communicate this list with each other.
to introduce the blacklist;
an auctioneer must keep lists of providers of counterfeits/forgeries and an umbrella organization, should check this list for overlaps and report this overlaps to the involved houses.The overlap providers of counterfeits in different houses should get a drop ban on all houses.

restorations, certainly beautiful and legitimate are allowed but must be mentioned.

best,
jasper

Matchlock · 9th May 2014, 07:04 PM

Excellent, Jasper,

Thank you!
I absolutely agree!

But let's be realistic:
This will never happen.
Just because there is just one aim that all the dealers and auction houses want to achieve in the end, and that's: SELL and MAKE PROFIT, no matter what or how!

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 9th May 2014, 07:22 PM

The auction system is non-transparent and old fashioned.
anno 2014, you want to know from whom you buy something?
a small announcement of the offering party in the description would be a step in the right direction.

best,

Matchlock · 9th May 2014, 07:48 PM

Yes, but there is one fundamental problem that even all museums face:

the genuineness of all kinds of weapons cannot be seriously proven with scientific methods - just because there are no legally binding criteria whatsoever!
The real age of iron, e.g., cannot be proven scientifically!

For wood, there only exists one single criterion for just one single wood worldwide: the so-called Süddeutsche Eichenchronologie (the dendrochronological age assessment for oak from South Germany), from ca. 3000 B.C. to ca. 1500 A.D. And even this method is only based on the fact that oak was the most usual wood for building houses.
Any other seriously acknowledged scientific method, e.g. the famous C14 method, cannot be any more exact than including an error rate of 500 years!!! So it is fine for dating objects of proconsul africanus that are more than 3 million years old - give or take 500 years; in this case, that tiny difference does not matter.
For medieval weapons though, that are only 500 years old, it means that no exact age can be testified!!!
There is no method to even tell for sure when a piece of wrought iron was last heated - 500 years or 1 day ago?!
These are the latest facts testified by the leading authorities, the RATHGEN-FORSCHUNGSLABOR BERLIN:
http://www.smb.museum/museen-und-ein...abor/home.html
Founded in 1888, the RATHGEN is the world's oldest and most competent laboratory for museum items.

DID YOU KNOW THAT?
DID YOU REALIZE THAT?

Wikipedia on the C14 method:

Carbon-14
Full table
General
Name, symbol radiocarbon,14C
Neutrons 8
Protons 6
Nuclide data
Natural abundance 1 part per trillion
Half-life 5,730 ± 40 years
Isotope mass 14.003241 u
Spin 0+
Decay mode Decay energy
Beta 0.156476[1] MeV

Carbon-14, 14C, or radiocarbon, is a radioactive isotope of carbon with a nucleus containing 6 protons and 8 neutrons. Its presence in organic materials is the basis of the radiocarbon dating method pioneered by Willard Libby and colleagues (1949) to date archaeological, geological and hydrogeological samples. Carbon-14 was discovered on 27 February 1940, by Martin Kamen and Sam Ruben at the University of California Radiation Laboratory in Berkeley. Its existence had been suggested by Franz Kurie in 1934.[2]

There are three naturally occurring isotopes of carbon on Earth: 99% of the carbon is carbon-12, 1% is carbon-13, and carbon-14 occurs in trace amounts, i.e., making up about 1 part per trillion (0.0000000001%) of the carbon in the atmosphere. The half-life of carbon-14 is 5,730±40 years.[3] Carbon-14 decays into nitrogen-14 through beta decay.[4] The primary natural source of carbon-14 on Earth is cosmic ray action upon nitrogen in the atmosphere, and it is therefore a cosmogenic nuclide. However, open-air nuclear testing between 1955–1980 contributed to this pool.

The different isotopes of carbon do not differ appreciably in their chemical properties. This is used in chemical and biological research, in a technique called carbon labeling: carbon-14 atoms can be used to replace nonradioactive carbon, in order to trace chemical and biochemical reactions involving carbon atoms from any given organic compound.

And what are you planning to do do when a forger re-uses a beam of 600 year-old oak from a condemned house (and there still are thousands of those houses all over Europe! - to make the stock of a haquebut? You cannot prove anything. I definitely know one famous South German dealer named F., who does this regularly! No chance for anybody to prove that this 600 year-old oak never was the stock of a gun, until just two years ago. These are perfect forgeries.
A former member of this forum who you, Jasper, seemed to be very familiar with, until he attacked me in a totally sick manner, is one of his regular customers! His user name on the forum started with Sw..., the title of a movie. That guy preferably collects Gothic and Renaissance edged weapons, and all of them are crude fakes!!! That arrogant and rich person knows nothing and consequently keeps spending unbebievable sums on such things, mostly to that specific dealer. He attended my collection but did not grasp the tiniest thing! As he is completely unteachable, and a psychically sick person, I just shoved him out of my life.

The sad outcome being that legally, no expertise can be anything more than just the personal opinion and assessment of the person affixed!

That's it. No chance. I can tell that for sure by my own experience writing expertises for law suits against that forger - expertises on historical weapons are officially regarded as nothing more than my humble personal private opinion. Not the tiniest trace of any proof whatsoever. No way!

It's kind of frustrating. It makes you helpless, don't you think so?
Now that I told you the bare facts: what is your reply?

The RATHGEN people will readily confirm my statements.
No chance. No way.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 9th May 2014, 08:21 PM

We have had this kind of discussion on forgeries before:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=forger+german

m

Matchlock · 10th May 2014, 09:42 AM

Jasper?!

I was hoping you would reply ...

m

Marcus den toom · 10th May 2014, 01:02 PM

The auction house(s) live by the creed of "nothing is true, everything is permited" . A sad state of afair since many collectors normally wouldn't recognise forgeries, like Michl already stated... by using old wood and restocking an original hand cannon for instance (multiplying the price by 10 times of the original cannon barrel).

Always keep in mind what the purpose of a business is!!! I studied business economics so i know at a certain level what the point is, Profit and Continuation. If it would become common knowledge that this auction house is mis informing people on purpose (a hard thing to prove in a meaningfull way

) the continuity of this auction would be in jeopardy and so would there profit.

9th May 2014, 07:48 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Yes, but there is one fundamental problem that even all museums face: the genuineness of all kinds of weapons cannot be seriously proven with scientific methods - just because there are no legally binding criteria whatsoever! The real age of iron, e.g., cannot be proven scientifically! For wood, there only exists one single criterion for just one single wood worldwide: the so-called Süddeutsche Eichenchronologie (the dendrochronological age assessment for oak from South Germany), from ca. 3000 B.C. to ca. 1500 A.D. And even this method is only based on the fact that oak was the most usual wood for building houses. Any other seriously acknowledged scientific method, e.g. the famous C14 method, cannot be any more exact than including an error rate of 500 years!!! So it is fine for dating objects of proconsul africanus that are more than 3 million years old - give or take 500 years; in this case, that tiny difference does not matter. For medieval weapons though, that are only 500 years old, it means that no exact age can be testified!!! There is no method to even tell for sure when a piece of wrought iron was last heated - 500 years or 1 day ago?! *These are the latest facts testified by the leading authorities, the RATHGEN-FORSCHUNGSLABOR BERLIN:* http://www.smb.museum/museen-und-ein...abor/home.html *Founded in 1888, the RATHGEN* is the world's oldest and most competent laboratory for museum items. DID YOU KNOW THAT? DID YOU REALIZE THAT? Wikipedia on the C14 method: Carbon-14 Full table General Name, symbol radiocarbon,14C Neutrons 8 Protons 6 Nuclide data Natural abundance 1 part per trillion Half-life 5,730 ± 40 years Isotope mass 14.003241 u Spin 0+ Decay mode Decay energy Beta 0.156476[1] MeV Carbon-14, 14C, or radiocarbon, is a radioactive isotope of carbon with a nucleus containing 6 protons and 8 neutrons. Its presence in organic materials is the basis of the radiocarbon dating method pioneered by Willard Libby and colleagues (1949) to date archaeological, geological and hydrogeological samples. Carbon-14 was discovered on 27 February 1940, by Martin Kamen and Sam Ruben at the University of California Radiation Laboratory in Berkeley. Its existence had been suggested by Franz Kurie in 1934.[2] There are three naturally occurring isotopes of carbon on Earth: 99% of the carbon is carbon-12, 1% is carbon-13, and carbon-14 occurs in trace amounts, i.e., making up about 1 part per trillion (0.0000000001%) of the carbon in the atmosphere. The half-life of carbon-14 is 5,730±40 years.[3] Carbon-14 decays into nitrogen-14 through beta decay.[4] The primary natural source of carbon-14 on Earth is cosmic ray action upon nitrogen in the atmosphere, and it is therefore a cosmogenic nuclide. However, open-air nuclear testing between 1955–1980 contributed to this pool. The different isotopes of carbon do not differ appreciably in their chemical properties. This is used in chemical and biological research, in a technique called carbon labeling: carbon-14 atoms can be used to replace nonradioactive carbon, in order to trace chemical and biochemical reactions involving carbon atoms from any given organic compound. And what are you planning to do do when a forger re-uses a beam of 600 year-old oak from a condemned house (and there still are thousands of those houses all over Europe! - to make the stock of a haquebut? You cannot prove anything. I definitely know one famous South German dealer named F., who does this regularly! No chance for anybody to prove that this 600 year-old oak never was the stock of a gun, until just two years ago. These are perfect forgeries. A former member of this forum who you, Jasper, seemed to be very familiar with, until he attacked me in a totally sick manner, is one of his regular customers! His user name on the forum started with Sw..., the title of a movie. That guy preferably collects Gothic and Renaissance edged weapons, and all of them are crude fakes!!! That arrogant and rich person knows nothing and consequently keeps spending unbebievable sums on such things, mostly to that specific dealer. He attended my collection but did not grasp the tiniest thing! As he is completely unteachable, and a psychically sick person, I just shoved him out of my life. The sad outcome being that legally, no expertise can be anything more than just the personal opinion and assessment of the person affixed! That's it. No chance. I can tell that for sure by my own experience writing expertises for law suits against that forger - expertises on historical weapons are officially regarded as nothing more than my humble personal private opinion. Not the tiniest trace of any proof whatsoever. No way! It's kind of frustrating. It makes you helpless, don't you think so? Now that I told you the bare facts: what is your reply? The RATHGEN** people will readily confirm my statements. No chance. No way. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 10th May 2014 at 09:53 AM.

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9th May 2014, 06:53 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Michael, Here, I strongly agree. the proportion of counterfeits in medieval and Renaissance swords is maybe even higher. it is incredible that this can continue...... it also would be a good step in the right direction if the auction houses would keep a blacklist of providers of forgeries and communicate this list with each other. to introduce the blacklist; an auctioneer must keep lists of providers of counterfeits/forgeries and an umbrella organization, should check this list for overlaps and report this overlaps to the involved houses.The overlap providers of counterfeits in different houses should get a drop ban on all houses. restorations, certainly beautiful and legitimate are allowed but must be mentioned. best, jasper

9th May 2014, 07:04 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Excellent, Jasper, Thank you! I absolutely agree! But let's be realistic: This will never happen. Just because there is just one aim that all the dealers and auction houses want to achieve in the end, and that's: SELL and MAKE PROFIT, no matter what or how! Best, Michael

9th May 2014, 07:22 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	The auction system is non-transparent and old fashioned. anno 2014, you want to know from whom you buy something? a small announcement of the offering party in the description would be a step in the right direction. best,

9th May 2014, 08:21 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	We have had this kind of discussion on forgeries before: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=forger+german m

10th May 2014, 09:42 AM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Jasper?! I was hoping you would reply ... m

10th May 2014, 01:02 PM	#7
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	The auction house(s) live by the creed of "nothing is true, everything is permited" . A sad state of afair since many collectors normally wouldn't recognise forgeries, like Michl already stated... by using old wood and restocking an original hand cannon for instance (multiplying the price by 10 times of the original cannon barrel). Always keep in mind what the purpose of a business is!!! I studied business economics so i know at a certain level what the point is, Profit and Continuation. If it would become common knowledge that this auction house is mis informing people on purpose (a hard thing to prove in a meaningfull way ) the continuity of this auction would be in jeopardy and so would there profit.