Cretan Revolution Weapons 18th century

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

How regrettable that these intriguing and obviously well provenanced items from Crete brought no interest whatsoever!!!

Perhaps that is because these items might be more properly placed in the European Forum…

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps that is because these items might be more properly placed in the European Forum…

Really?????
Somehow (for the past 17+ years) the yataghans from the Balkans, Greece, Albania etc have been decidedly discussed here as ethnographic weapons. Have these regions now become part of Europe? I better check my latest National Geographic's!! The last I checked Crete was still in the proximity of Greece geographically .

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Really?????
Somehow (for the past 17+ years) the yataghans from the Balkans, Greece, Albania etc have been decidedly discussed here as ethnographic weapons. Have these regions now become part of Europe? I better check my latest National Geographic's!! The last I checked Crete was still in the proximity of Greece geographically .

That's all well and good Jim, but it doesn't seem, as you have so astutely pointed out, that anyone is discussing these particular weapons right here right now. So i was just a simple suggestion of how it might get more response and i am having some difficulty understanding your extreme and somewhat snarky reaction to it.
BTW, the last time I checked, both Greece AND Crete were indeed considered to be part of Europe.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

That's all well and good Jim, but it doesn't seem, as you have so astutely pointed out, that anyone is discussing these particular weapons right here right now. So i was just a simple suggestion of how it might get more response and i am having some difficulty understanding your extreme and somewhat snarky reaction to it.
BTW, the last time I checked, both Greece AND Crete were indeed considered to be part of Europe.

Oh...I guess I was having difficulty understanding your suggestion this was more 'properly' placed on the European forum, and of course I would never issue a 'snarky' remark to you!!!....I thought you were kidding

Interesting issue though, which weapons are 'ethnographic' and which are 'European'. While Greece and Crete are of course in the modern European Union, the extremely broadened classification of 'Europe' does bring a sort of paradox to defining these fields of study. Perhaps my own perception but I had not thought of the Balkans and Greece as part of Europe, but apparently that notion should be amended.

Hopefully these notes will help direct future queries and posts on yataghans more 'properly' to the European forum, but I think the ones from Turkey should remain on the ethnographic side.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

While Greece and Crete are of course in the modern European Union, the extremely broadened classification of 'Europe' does bring a sort of paradox to defining these fields of study. Perhaps my own perception but I had not thought of the Balkans and Greece as part of Europe, but apparently that notion should be amended.

I'm not going to press this issue as i don't really care where these weapons are discussed. Again, i was simply trying to offer an explanation for why this thread may not have received more attention. However, i must point out that the inclusion of Greece into Europe is not some modern convenience of the European Union. Greece has ALWAYS been part of Europe. In fact, the name itself is of Greek origin (Europa from Greek Mythogy.The story of her abduction by Zeus in the form of a white bull was a Cretan story.), first used in the 6th century BC by Greek geographers.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

I'm not going to press this issue as i don't really care where these weapons are discussed. Again, i was simply trying to offer an explanation for why this thread may not have received more attention. However, i must point out that the inclusion of Greece into Europe is not some modern convenience of the European Union. Greece has ALWAYS been part of Europe. In fact, the name itself is of Greek origin (Europa from Greek Mythogy.The story of her abduction by Zeus in the form of a white bull was a Cretan story.), first used in the 6th century BC by Greek geographers.

Salaams David, Regarding Greece. Surely it ought to be considered not in respect of where it is today but where it was in the building bricks of history and regional traditions...that is in Asia ...at least partly so...and in relation to its influence and that of its major neighbors...particularly Turkey... in culture, dress, architecture, ethnographic arms and armour , style, food , ....and pretty well everything.

Quote'';Greece (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

- Independence declared from the Ottoman Empire 1 January 1822
- Recognized 3 February 1830
- Current constitution 11 June 1975
- Joined the EU 1 January 1981

Greece is strategically located at the crossroads of Europe, Western Asia, and Africa, and shares land borders with Albania to the northwest, the Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria to the north and Turkey to the northeast. The country consists of nine geographic regions: Macedonia, Central Greece, the Peloponnese, Thessaly, Epirus, the Aegean Islands (including the Dodecanese and Cyclades), Thrace, Crete, and the Ionian Islands. The Aegean Sea lies to the east of the mainland, the Ionian Sea to the west, and the Mediterranean Sea to the south. Greece has the longest coastline on the Mediterranean Basin and the 11th longest coastline in the world at 13,676 km (8,498 mi) in length, featuring a vast number of islands (approximately 1,400, of which 227 are inhabited). Eighty percent of Greece consists of mountains, of which Mount Olympus is the highest, at 2,917 m (9,570 ft).

Modern Greece traces its roots to the civilization of Ancient Greece, beginning with the Bronze Age's Aegean Civilizations, and is considered the cradle of all Western civilization. As such, it is the birthplace of democracy, Western philosophy, the Olympic Games, Western literature and historiography, political science, major scientific and mathematical principles, and Western drama, including both tragedy and comedy. The cultural and technological achievements of Greece greatly influenced the world, with many aspects of Greek civilization being imparted to the East through Alexander the Great's campaigns, and to the West through the Roman Empire. This rich legacy is partly reflected in the 18 UNESCO World Heritage Sites located in Greece, ranking it 6th in Europe and 13th in the world.

The modern Greek state, which comprises much of the historical core of Greek civilization, was established in 1830 following the Greek War of Independence from the Ottoman Empire."Unquote.

Thus in Forum terms it would be folly to simply reclassify Greece as "European" Whilst it is technically in the west it is most definitely "Ethnographic" in essence....

I am reminded that one of the most ardent Grecian followers were the Abbasiid dynasty...!!

Common sense dictates a strategy of understanding its important role in Ethnographic terms.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Good David! and I appreciate you explaining your explanation, as I took your note that perhaps if the topic posted was placed 'properly' on the other forum to mean that it must have been 'improperly' placed here on the ethnographic forum. That was to me, for some inexplicable reason, confusing as for the many decades I have studied arms I suddenly and awkwardly felt I had been incorrect in thinking of yataghans as ethnographic.

It was however so kind of you to express your concerns toward the probable reason this thread received no response, and of course the point is that arbitrary categorization as to which forum the topic of Cretan weapons, including yataghans is probably irrelevant. It seems that kris topics are posted as often on the ethnographic forum as on the kris forum, and the discussions seem to progress acceptably despite the location of posting.

The primary objective here is learning I believe, and I say truthfully that I honestly never thought of 'Europe' as including Greece, Crete or many of the countries and regions which apparently are technically included.
Here I would like to thank Ibrahiim for the outstanding material from Wikipedia, which I also looked into, and well explains these 'geographic' matters.

I think he hit the nail on the head when noting that in the west, it is the 'ethnographic essence' with which Greece, Crete and many of these countries are perceived that I must have been thinking of. In nearly 40 years in the travel industry, when people spoke of trips to 'Europe' I cannot think of a single instance where that included Greece! I now feel quite delighted that I am now so much better informed.

Hopefully this little detour in geographic convention, though interesting, will be left behind as once again I implore others with interest in the weapons of Crete to join here with comments and examples .

[David]

Well this is just billiant! Why don't we just derail the discussion of these weapons altogether and step out on a long and drawn out debate on whether or not Greece is in Europe or not. I'm sure that is exactly what Jim had in mind when he questioned why this thread hasn't attracted more attention.
Factually, Greece is now and always has been in what is considered Europe. The Greeks invented the word. Their own geographers in ancient times placed them on the western side of the divide between Europe and Asia and so has every geographer since. We cannot, therefore, "reclassify" something as European that has ALWAYS been considered European. That is common sense.
As far as Greece's influences as a "building block of history and regional traditions", i would have to say that the Greek culture had far more influence on the West than the East. As your own Wikipedia posting point out it is considered the cradle of Western civilization (not Eastern), "the birthplace of democracy, Western philosophy, the Olympic Games, Western literature and historiography, political science, major scientific and mathematical principles, and Western drama, including both tragedy and comedy." In other words, it is the birthplace of European culture.
As to what is to be considered "ethnographic", lets look at the definition of the word. From Miriam Webster:
Ethnography: the study and systematic recording of human cultures; also : a descriptive work produced from such research.
Descriptive study of a particular human society. Contemporary ethnography is based almost entirely on fieldwork. The ethnographer lives among the people who are the subject of study for a year or more, learning the local language and participating in everyday life while striving to maintain a degree of objective detachment. He or she usually cultivates close relationships with “informants” who can provide specific information on aspects of cultural life. While detailed written notes are the mainstay of fieldwork, ethnographers may also use tape recorders, cameras, or video recorders. Contemporary ethnographies have both influenced and been influenced by literary theory.
Note there is no mention of geographical place in this definition. Ethnographic study is therefore not limited to Asian cultures as ethnographic studies take place in cultures from ALL parts of the world, including Europe itself. In fact, many ethnographic studies have been done of certain aspects of European cultures. A weapon is not, therefore, "ethnographic" because of where it is from. Common sense would dictate that this is a strategy of understanding that is of prime importance to our understanding of the nature of ethnographic weapons.
I would suggest Ibrahiim, that if you really wish to discuss or debate this question further (and it is indeed a fine question that is of great concern to all our discussions here) that you start a new thread entitled "What is the meaning Ethnographic study". I think it is really good for us to re-examine how and why we make certain categorical divisions in our discussion of certain weaponry. For now i would suggest that we get back to the real questions at hand here about Drac2k's weapons. Continuing this discussion here will only distract from the original purpose of this thread and have the opposite result that i think Jim was really hoping for when he questioned why no one was responding here.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps that is because these items might be more properly placed in the European Forum…

There has been a more evident one ... Mister moderator, sir
... but not yet contemplated . Can you apply your influence