The Sinhalese Kastane: Its Development, Decoration and Symbolism

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st March 2014, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by napoleon

saalams ibrahiim,hello jim,yes i fully accept regional and artistic variation,but my point is where weapons have a point of origin,you then have provenance as with the weapons from candy royal palace,artists do tend to be recognisable by their overall style,so i think that if you were to compare high end examples,you could identify one royal workshop, it is a begining i think but in order to do so need pictures of high quality swords,so anyone lucky enough to own such a piece could we see them please

Salaams Napoleon ~ We dont have a point of origin...That is the point. Moreover if we knew what artesans were working in which workshops and with what techniques and styles around the Pre Portuguese entry in 1505 we would be very nicely placed to engineer a full and proveable answer.. We have none of these... thus, we are insofar as these observations you note almost completely in the dark... Shining a light into those dark corners and unearthing what small details we can may lead us to a clearer image of how, what, where, when, why and who ?... regarding the mysterious Kastane.

For a substantial report on Royal Workshops please see http://www.craftrevival.org/Extralin...ageCode=P00014

Regards.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

napoleon · 3rd March 2014, 11:11 AM

saalams ibrahiim,thank you for the link,i wasnt offering a point of origin but a point from which to start,that is something of known origin such as the swords and piha kaetta from kandy royal palace ,what can definatley be said is that these do come from a known point in time and a known place,it may not be pre portugese ,but my belief is that if there are more swords such as these then perhaps a broad frame work could be established in terms of dating,and probably regional variation,getting back to the point of origin start from what is known and try to work backwards and forwards regards napoleon

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd March 2014, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by napoleon

saalams ibrahiim,thank you for the link,i wasnt offering a point of origin but a point from which to start,that is something of known origin such as the swords and piha kaetta from kandy royal palace ,what can definatley be said is that these do come from a known point in time and a known place,it may not be pre portugese ,but my belief is that if there are more swords such as these then perhaps a broad frame work could be established in terms of dating,and probably regional variation,getting back to the point of origin start from what is known and try to work backwards and forwards regards napoleon

Salaams Napoleon... Can you tell me from which point in time / known place the Kastane comes?

What I can say is that we know a lot more now than we did a year ago, however, we may never know for sure about the full intricacies of this weapon...thus we may have to move forward using generalities "maybe and possibly" since there are so many imponderables.

Regional variation is always something we are looking for and close relationships appear in Javanese, Tibettan and Indian weapons ...but you may also have to look at the effects on the early system caused by the 3 invader countries and how that has thrown the link to their past traditions for example in steel making. Impact on design may have come from European styles and that is where the problem really difuses widely...with influence caused by possible early pre 1505AD(ie Pre Portuguese period) weapon imports from Red Sea, Arabian Sea and Gulf ports by the wide ranging sea merchants.. The Sri Lankan Moors.

It could be argued that we have created more questions than we have solved, moreover, the ball of string has only just begun to unravel... Who knows what other knots we may encounter on the way?

There appears to be a close tie-up design-wise in the Piha Khaeta and its close proximity inside the Royal Workshops organisation. Shape and form appear similar and design swirls and decorative features, not least the spill over onto the blade in lavish stylistic decoration are interesting as well as the Zoomorhic hilt that so much resembles the Kastane monster deity though appears to have birdlike feathers and proportions in some examples, though not all.. See http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000498.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 3rd March 2014, 06:02 PM

Hi Napoleon,

What I would point out here is that the purpose of this topic in this thread is to discover and discuss more on the development of the kasthane as a recognized indigenous form of sword in Sri Lanka, and possibilities for its origins and the symbolism seen in its decoration.
Much of what we are discussing are examples and records of potential clues in these aspects, so actually Napoleon, what you are suggesting is pretty much what we have been doing and in point of fact we have been working on for years

It is interesting to look through the search here to see the discussions over years and how far we have come though (my own research goes back only about 10 years).

Interesting observation concerning the identification of 'high end' weapons by stylistic association of certain artisans, and that factor does often come into play in identification of certain weapons in many cases overall . I would note that it is not a universally possible standard however, and in the case of the Royal Workshops in Kandy, it seems the artisans were collectively following the directives of those in power. With this circumstance it would seem that they were following guidelines in their work and that individual license would not be likely. It seems one reference I recall noted this was apparent in that these artisans did not sign their work in the Kandyan shops.

The issue of regional variation has almost typically been recognized as a problem in classification of ethnographic weapons overall as diffusion of forms through trade, warfare, colonialization and nomadic circumstances are ever present factors challenging such specific identifications often attempted.
What has been proposed here in a number of instances is that perhaps regional variation may account for some of the notable differences in some examples of the kasthane. It seems clear that certain similarly formed sword hilts in other cultural regions reveal distinct associations.

As Ibrahiim has well noted, we may have revealed more questions than answers here, but it that is often the nature of research and what is important is that these are what may lead us to key clues in the larger scope of the study.

I do very much appreciate your interest and participation in this study and its indeed good to see we share common views in our efforts here.
I also agree that I look forward to seeing examples of other collectors here, and on that note I am most grateful to Ibrahiim for furnishing the outstanding illustrations and references to date here.

All best regards,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th March 2014, 09:05 AM

Salaams All Note to Library~ The Zoomorphic styles of India need to be brought into focus since that is the largest and closest neighbour to the old Sri Lankan situation and must have played an important part in design and style influence..and since the religious form was broadly quite similar. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16363

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

napoleon · 4th March 2014, 10:44 AM

hello jim, salaams ibrahiim,firstly jim i fully appreciate that a great deal of work has gone into this subject over a great number of years,and more questions than answers is usual in any debate,here is one for you when does the knuckle guard appear?,pre or post portugese? ibrahiim the kastanes that are of a known point in time are one you yourself listed ,the sword of king raja singh 111,from the battle of gannoruwa 1638, and the marvelous pics offered by maurice of two swords piha kaetta and cannon captured from the palace at kandy by the dutch 1765,what can be said about these is that the construction of the first is not later than 1638 and in the second instance not later than 1765,so the point i am labouring over is that establishing chronology is possible,

, i like the references to mainland india and its influence,and pictures of daggers still more food for thought , piha kaetta glad you brought these up as to my eyes earlier examples definatley seem more functional,another similarity with the kastane, and if any or all of this has been said before apologies,but it doesnt make it any less valid,

,the purpose of debate is the advancement of the common cause,a question costs nothing,you can feel a bit of a fool for five minutes or spend the rest of your days wondering the answer (northern saying)

napoleon · 4th March 2014, 11:31 AM

salaams ibrahiim,thanks for the link to piha kaetta,the bird headed ones are most unusual,the one holding the ball,could this be an adaptation of the chinese dragon chasing the pearl of wisdom i wonder ,great link though regards napoleon

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th March 2014, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by napoleon

salaams ibrahiim,thanks for the link to piha kaetta,the bird headed ones are most unusual,the one holding the ball,could this be an adaptation of the chinese dragon chasing the pearl of wisdom i wonder ,great link though regards napoleon

Salaams Napoleon...The dragon chasing feiry pearl design was indeed transmitted to Persia from Chinese style and is seen there on various ceramic and other materials as a decorative feature, however, insofar as a link to a birdhead holding what appears to be an egg on an Indian hilt (and regarding a possible design link to Kastane)~ that is a quantum leap and for me a bridge too far.

The bottleneck we are trying to penetrate beyond is the 1505 point when first the Europeans set foot in Sri Lanka..

Were Kastane produced before that time (and for how long?) or was there some collusion with the Portuguese working with Royal Workshops? In other words did the Portuguese introduce a basic design from European sword style upon which The Sri Lankan craftsmen built the lavish design or was it entirely unrelated...and a home produced item ?...If so is there influence from European swords into the region by other means perhaps from the Sri Lankan Moors or overland up the silk road then South through India or via other sea ports and thus other points of the ethnographic compass including Buddhist/Hindu sources from Java, Tibet, China and what is, if any, the connection to Nimcha style?

Your previous post refers to 1638 but that cannot be an accurate start point ... Potentially if the sword was home grown the date could be vastly earlier ...and simply could not be established suddenly at that point... thus I illustrate potential earlier production based upon the religious designs shown and backed by early proven steel production, Royal Workshops with known artesan castes; ...specialist horn and wood carvers, bladesmiths, Gold and Silver craftsmen etc etc

Of course notes on the general subject are most welcome however you seem to be intent on laying down a "how to research structure" that is simply not relevant(I regret that neither can I see a tie up in the two dates your refer to except that they are plucked at random from this thread), however, any researched facts on the subject to hand will be well received. Research so far has included countless hours of grinding through documents and references both in text books and the massive load of detail at web. Whilst we are not anywhere near a complete understanding of this weapon quest... "The Kastane conundrum" ...is well advanced compared to a few years ago..and we are at the cutting edge in that regard.

Put another way Napoleon... If you can see a gap in the research please feel free to examine that ... produce the research and fill the missing void... as you say ...the ink is free and there is nothing wrong in asking the question...and far less wrong in adding detail.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th March 2014, 04:11 PM

Salaams All; Note to library.

No study of ethnographic arms and armour can be completed without some reference to the historical mixture of peoples in a country under scrutiny.. This is magnified many times over in a country like Sri Lanka and to that end and to give a balanced picture as to the possibility of the Moors(The Mercantile traders of Sri Lanka) having transmitted certain weapon technology and style I recommend a look at http://sailanmuslim.com/news/wp-cont...nkan-moors.pdf which is an astonishing account of the Sri Lankan Moors.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

3rd March 2014, 11:11 AM	#2
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	kastane saalams ibrahiim,thank you for the link,i wasnt offering a point of origin but a point from which to start,that is something of known origin such as the swords and piha kaetta from kandy royal palace ,what can definatley be said is that these do come from a known point in time and a known place,it may not be pre portugese ,but my belief is that if there are more swords such as these then perhaps a broad frame work could be established in terms of dating,and probably regional variation,getting back to the point of origin start from what is known and try to work backwards and forwards regards napoleon

4th March 2014, 09:05 AM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Indian Influence on Sri Lankan artesan design. Salaams All Note to Library~ The Zoomorphic styles of India need to be brought into focus since that is the largest and closest neighbour to the old Sri Lankan situation and must have played an important part in design and style influence..and since the religious form was broadly quite similar. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16363 Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

4th March 2014, 10:44 AM	#6
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	kastane hello jim, salaams ibrahiim,firstly jim i fully appreciate that a great deal of work has gone into this subject over a great number of years,and more questions than answers is usual in any debate,here is one for you when does the knuckle guard appear?,pre or post portugese? ibrahiim the kastanes that are of a known point in time are one you yourself listed ,the sword of king raja singh 111,from the battle of gannoruwa 1638, and the marvelous pics offered by maurice of two swords piha kaetta and cannon captured from the palace at kandy by the dutch 1765,what can be said about these is that the construction of the first is not later than 1638 and in the second instance not later than 1765,so the point i am labouring over is that establishing chronology is possible, , i like the references to mainland india and its influence,and pictures of daggers still more food for thought , piha kaetta glad you brought these up as to my eyes earlier examples definatley seem more functional,another similarity with the kastane, and if any or all of this has been said before apologies,but it doesnt make it any less valid, ,the purpose of debate is the advancement of the common cause,a question costs nothing,you can feel a bit of a fool for five minutes or spend the rest of your days wondering the answer (northern saying)

4th March 2014, 11:31 AM	#7
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	kastane piha kaetta link salaams ibrahiim,thanks for the link to piha kaetta,the bird headed ones are most unusual,the one holding the ball,could this be an adaptation of the chinese dragon chasing the pearl of wisdom i wonder ,great link though regards napoleon

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3rd March 2014, 06:02 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Hi Napoleon, What I would point out here is that the purpose of this topic in this thread is to discover and discuss more on the development of the kasthane as a recognized indigenous form of sword in Sri Lanka, and possibilities for its origins and the symbolism seen in its decoration. Much of what we are discussing are examples and records of potential clues in these aspects, so actually Napoleon, what you are suggesting is pretty much what we have been doing and in point of fact we have been working on for years It is interesting to look through the search here to see the discussions over years and how far we have come though (my own research goes back only about 10 years). Interesting observation concerning the identification of 'high end' weapons by stylistic association of certain artisans, and that factor does often come into play in identification of certain weapons in many cases overall . I would note that it is not a universally possible standard however, and in the case of the Royal Workshops in Kandy, it seems the artisans were collectively following the directives of those in power. With this circumstance it would seem that they were following guidelines in their work and that individual license would not be likely. It seems one reference I recall noted this was apparent in that these artisans did not sign their work in the Kandyan shops. The issue of regional variation has almost typically been recognized as a problem in classification of ethnographic weapons overall as diffusion of forms through trade, warfare, colonialization and nomadic circumstances are ever present factors challenging such specific identifications often attempted. What has been proposed here in a number of instances is that perhaps regional variation may account for some of the notable differences in some examples of the kasthane. It seems clear that certain similarly formed sword hilts in other cultural regions reveal distinct associations. As Ibrahiim has well noted, we may have revealed more questions than answers here, but it that is often the nature of research and what is important is that these are what may lead us to key clues in the larger scope of the study. I do very much appreciate your interest and participation in this study and its indeed good to see we share common views in our efforts here. I also agree that I look forward to seeing examples of other collectors here, and on that note I am most grateful to Ibrahiim for furnishing the outstanding illustrations and references to date here. All best regards, Jim

6th March 2014, 04:11 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All; Note to library. No study of ethnographic arms and armour can be completed without some reference to the historical mixture of peoples in a country under scrutiny.. This is magnified many times over in a country like Sri Lanka and to that end and to give a balanced picture as to the possibility of the Moors(The Mercantile traders of Sri Lanka) having transmitted certain weapon technology and style I recommend a look at http://sailanmuslim.com/news/wp-cont...nkan-moors.pdf which is an astonishing account of the Sri Lankan Moors. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.