An Odd Indian Sword for Identification and Comment

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th December 2013, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

This is a very unusual Indian sword. The blade appears to be of mid-late 19th century manufacture and is made of very dark contrast wootz that creates a practically black blade. As far as I know this its original polish. The hilt is chiseled steel as are the baldric mounts and chape(restored). The chiseling is done in very deep/high relief with the raised areas gilded. I would consider the hilt to be of typical shamshir form with certainly Persian and perhaps European influences.

There are several unique features of the chiseling:

1. At first glance the motifs appear typically Indian but closer inspection makes me wonder if the rosettes aren't typically Indian, but the foliage(leaves and vines) look more European in style, in fact, practically Napoleonic!

2. Note the fighting cranes or herrons and the strange "droppings" trailing them...any ideas???...I'd like to think golden eggs, but it looks more like something else! I think these bird motifs are not so unusual on Muslim work, but why fighting and the rest?? Any ideas on the unique nature of this decorative motif???

The blade has been very well maintained. The fittings have as well, but the woven fabric covering has begun to dry rot and has had some minor restoration. It would seem that this sword simply sat somewhere unattended for a very long time.

Can anyone translate the cartouche???

I am looking forward to hearing any input about these unique motifs.

Salaams CharlesS~ I think the Indian weapon is an Indian Shamshiir. But ! Is it Indian?

I think is says...

Top Cartouche "Sultan Basha"

Lower Cartouche "Yaa Ali"

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

AJ1356 · 16th December 2013, 03:20 PM

One thing to remember is that Indian does not necessarily mean Hindu or Sikh. There were and are lots of Muslim communities, and during those times there were the Nawaabs and Baigums, that ruled over their own little areas, they were basically the Muslim Rajas. I think India in the 1970's decided to finally put and end to these titles and what not. I am thinking this Shamshir is the work of Haydarabad area, looks very nice and original.

The Bottom portion of the cartuoche reads Yaa Ali, the top does not ready Sultan Pasha/ Basha.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th December 2013, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

One thing to remember is that Indian does not necessarily mean Hindu or Sikh. There were and are lots of Muslim communities, and during those times there were the Nawaabs and Baigums, that ruled over their own little areas, they were basically the Muslim Rajas. I think India in the 1970's decided to finally put and end to these titles and what not. I am thinking this Shamshir is the work of Haydarabad area, looks very nice and original.

The Bottom portion of the cartuoche reads Yaa Ali, the top does not ready Sultan Pasha/ Basha.

Salaams AJ1356~ Yes I think you are right ... I may have that top cartouche wrongly put. Any takers on this translation please?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

AhmedH · 17th December 2013, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams AJ1356~ Yes I think you are right ... I may have that top cartouche wrongly put. Any takers on this translation please?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I've tried my best to read the inscriptions on the top bukhariyya, but couldn't understand it. Yes, the lower bukhariyya has the famous Shi'ite call: "Ya Ali"; although the way it is written appears to be very weird for me. I'm very sorry to disappoint you, but believe me, I've tried my best.

One thing that I could deduce: The inscription in the top bukhariyya may not be in Arabic; but rather Persian, Urdu, or some other language.

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

CharlesS · 17th December 2013, 09:12 PM

Thanks so much for your attempts at help here guys! Most appreciated. I would not be surprised at all if the script was Urdu....I would be a little more surprised if it were Farsi.

The construction of the sword seems Indian through and through to me. It is the decorative motifs that confound me.

Jim McDougall · 17th December 2013, 10:37 PM

Actually I think the suggestions of Georgian influence are well placed here, as well as the nod toward Hyderabad. The Hyderabad work does often incorporate the rosette in a rather linear fashion with the repousse silver work hilt, and scabbard mounts.
It is important to note the predominance of Mughal courts in India, and profoundly of course in the north in areas now Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Mughal courts favored Persian and Sh'ia culture and of course they followed the Faith, and various kinds of birds were often in their decorative motifs.

The shamshir of course was one of the highly prized swords of the Mughal courts, and in Indian parlance they were termed 'tulwar' regardless that they were of course called differently in contexts outside the Indian sphere.

I am also curious on the block forte on what otherwise would be a regular wootz shamshir blade.

I am wondering if perhaps this might be a diplomatically oriented sword under British auspices in the Raj. The deviation in the cartouches, applied somewhat unusually it would seem, may indeed be Urdu, the lingua francia in the northwest regions as mentioned.

The birds are unique and need to look further into that as far as Mughal motif.
The use of brass is unusual and again ends toward possible western influence in the sword.

CharlesS · 17th December 2013, 11:04 PM

Thanks Jim. There is no brass in this sword's hilt, as was suggested by Ariel. It is chiseled steel with the raised areas gilded.

The block at the forte that envelops the blade is a somewhat typical feature on Indian swords that have been remounted or 'refitted'. It likely suggests that the blade and hilt were not 'born together' and in this case I think it may be the marriage of an older blade to later fittings.

Just a thought.

Also, the new book by Robert Hales shows a couple of examples of the two cranes or herons in decorative motifs, but naturally the examples in his book of fine arms are much better executed than the one here.

Thanks for your thoughts. I always look forward to your insights.

AhmedH · 19th December 2013, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams AJ1356~ Yes I think you are right ... I may have that top cartouche wrongly put. Any takers on this translation please?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I've posted the latest photo CharlesS submitted and sent it to a guy who speaks Urdu. Here was his answer:

" I have tried very hard to decipher the Arabic/Farsi/Urdu script but cannot go beyond what you have read in the lower part یا علی (Ya Ali) beyond با تا I cannot make out the rest . I think it is Farsi."

Therefore, it appears to be "Bata" instead of "Basha" or "Pasha".

According to him, the script maybe in Farsi; rather than being in Urdu.

Hope this helps...I'm really sorry for my limitations regarding this issue.

Best regards to all,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

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16th December 2013, 03:20 PM	#2
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	One thing to remember is that Indian does not necessarily mean Hindu or Sikh. There were and are lots of Muslim communities, and during those times there were the Nawaabs and Baigums, that ruled over their own little areas, they were basically the Muslim Rajas. I think India in the 1970's decided to finally put and end to these titles and what not. I am thinking this Shamshir is the work of Haydarabad area, looks very nice and original. The Bottom portion of the cartuoche reads Yaa Ali, the top does not ready Sultan Pasha/ Basha.

17th December 2013, 09:12 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Thanks so much for your attempts at help here guys! Most appreciated. I would not be surprised at all if the script was Urdu....I would be a little more surprised if it were Farsi. The construction of the sword seems Indian through and through to me. It is the decorative motifs that confound me.

17th December 2013, 10:37 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Actually I think the suggestions of Georgian influence are well placed here, as well as the nod toward Hyderabad. The Hyderabad work does often incorporate the rosette in a rather linear fashion with the repousse silver work hilt, and scabbard mounts. It is important to note the predominance of Mughal courts in India, and profoundly of course in the north in areas now Pakistan and Afghanistan. Mughal courts favored Persian and Sh'ia culture and of course they followed the Faith, and various kinds of birds were often in their decorative motifs. The shamshir of course was one of the highly prized swords of the Mughal courts, and in Indian parlance they were termed 'tulwar' regardless that they were of course called differently in contexts outside the Indian sphere. I am also curious on the block forte on what otherwise would be a regular wootz shamshir blade. I am wondering if perhaps this might be a diplomatically oriented sword under British auspices in the Raj. The deviation in the cartouches, applied somewhat unusually it would seem, may indeed be Urdu, the lingua francia in the northwest regions as mentioned. The birds are unique and need to look further into that as far as Mughal motif. The use of brass is unusual and again ends toward possible western influence in the sword.

17th December 2013, 11:04 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Thanks Jim. There is no brass in this sword's hilt, as was suggested by Ariel. It is chiseled steel with the raised areas gilded. The block at the forte that envelops the blade is a somewhat typical feature on Indian swords that have been remounted or 'refitted'. It likely suggests that the blade and hilt were not 'born together' and in this case I think it may be the marriage of an older blade to later fittings. Just a thought. Also, the new book by Robert Hales shows a couple of examples of the two cranes or herons in decorative motifs, but naturally the examples in his book of fine arms are much better executed than the one here. Thanks for your thoughts. I always look forward to your insights.