The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would like to say that it has been most intesting to see this debate/discussion unfold, and while there aeem to have been a degree of 'loggerheads' etc. everyone seems to have maintained a good level of courtesy in interaction. Most interesting is the nature of the weapons which are the focus here.
If I may add some thoughts and personal experience which though limited, might add a little perspective. I would clarify, as this is a 'discussion' in my view I do not take 'sides'

When I first acquired one of this long cylinder hilt Omani swords, it seems it was around 1994-5 , around the time Robert Elgood published "Arms and Armour of Arabia". At this time, these were still considered remarkably rare, and thier appearance was even rarer in catalogs or auctions. I recall that the admittedly 'wreck' of a 'kattara' I acquired was considered a bit of conquest in the limited collecting circles in which I was involved.

With Elgoods book, we knew of these forms, and the swords referred to in these threads as 'battle swords' from factions in Nizwa were must sought as rare early to even 'ancient' prototypes for the kattara. They were almost invariably misidentified accordingly, as medieval etc.

As has been often the case, in a short time more of the cylinder hilts began to occur in markets, and great excitement grew when several of the 'old' type kattara appeared.
As has been noted, Oman has not been a particularly open place to the west until relatively recent years. Presumably that degree of opening up allowed for more examples to enter collectibles venues.

It would seem to me that kattara, while certainly known of, in the 19th century, were not especially avaliable in the typical colonial 'tourist' and souvenier centers of North Africa, Arabia and Red Sea areas. What seems to be known of them, as seen with the references by Auguste Demmin (1867) and subsequently copied by Burton (1884), these cylinder hilts appear to have been regarded as from Zanzibar. That is reflected in these references in drawings, and while Oman itself was effectively 'closed', the bustling entrepot of Zanzibar was not, but it was a Sultanate of Oman. Clearly the Zanzibar attribution resulted, and most notably, the limited data regarding these weapons has remained largely stagnant until Elgood in 1994.

The ceremonial function of these cylindrical hilt swords is well established, but it would seem that thier use in form as battle swords in Muscati circumstances was also a case in degree in the 19th century. It also seems that they were worn in more ostentatious dress as a status symbol and mark of prestige by the burgeoning ranks of merchants from Oman (Muscat as I understand), while interior Nizwa maintained thier traditional forms.

It does not seem particularly remarkable that various trade blades from German and other sources would have entered Omani armouries, and that their armourers would have copied markings etc just as in other colonial or native settings.
That the cottage industry of commercially producing these swords not only for ceremonial purposes, but for tourist ('collecting') venues also does not seem remarkable.

It is clear that the early days of these becoming available in limited degree opened doors for the usual dealer opportunities, which became exploited in many cases as is typically the case with arms antiquities. I think the open look into these kinds of circumstances that has been revealed in these pages is wonderfully helpful to collectors, however I am not sure that these weapons as types can be categorically classified without individual evalution of each one on its own merits.

End of solilioquy

Salaams Jim,
Thank you for your post which I feel well underlines the cleansing humility about doubt in the matter of The Dancing Sword.

I have to say that one part of the puzzle I cannot get to the root of, is the date of appearance of the Kattara; The Curved Omani Sword, though, incidentally more often seen with a European blade..Did this appear before or after the Straight Omani Dancing Sword ?.. whose known birthdate is 1744 at the outset of the Bussaidi Dynasty. Naturally, part of the question is "where did the long Omani hilt come from" ? Which sword/thus which hilt came first?

I have been in most of the Museums, though, Bait Zubair not yet but friends have seen the exhibits, however, the Portuguese oddity is one blade I would like to look at and to ask where did it appear from and when? Portuguese Swords tended to be Rapier style... or at least the few I have owned were... I would like to examine any broadsword of that period pre 1650 in Muscat museums...though I am aware of certain exhibits that have a shall we say "dubious recent history". It would indeed be odd to discover a Portuguese blade of pre 1650 vintage on a post 1744 hilt !! but I suspect that is all it will be.

Meanwhile I continue to help build a strong reference library on this subject and I believe we are healthier for it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim,
It would indeed be odd to discover a Portuguese blade of pre 1650 vintage on a post 1744 hilt !! but I suspect that is all it will be.

It would have to be done post 1970 then to fit in with the typology you've outlined and would have to be classed as a "tourist item" as it would not be a flexible dancing sword.

Hopefully you can visit the museum in the near future and clear this up, I'm quite a few folks would be curious to see this particular sword.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

It would have to be done post 1970 then to fit in with the typology you've outlined and would have to be classed as a "tourist item" as it would not be a flexible dancing sword.

Hopefully you can visit the museum in the near future and clear this up, I'm quite a few folks would be curious to see this particular sword.

Salaams Iain... Of the half dozen or so scenarios that is one of them...I can only speculate on the potential range of variations since if the sword was left behind/captured when the Portuguese left we are talking about 1650. That puts the long hilt and the dancing sword out of sight. If the blade was slapped onto an Omani Longhilt later it raises many questions and if it was mounted post 1970 then it's a fake by definition. Surprisingly the Richardson and Dorr team included a few swords from that collection in their book but they are Shamshiirs..one with a 18th C. German blade ... I shall visit there soon but I know they are camera allergenic !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim,
Thank you for your post which I feel well underlines the cleansing humility about doubt in the matter of The Dancing Sword.

I have to say that one part of the puzzle I cannot get to the root of, is the date of appearance of the Kattara; The Curved Omani Sword, though, incidentally more often seen with a European blade..Did this appear before or after the Straight Omani Dancing Sword ?.. whose known birthdate is 1744 at the outset of the Bussaidi Dynasty. Naturally, part of the question is "where did the long Omani hilt come from" ? Which sword/thus which hilt came first?

I have been in most of the Museums, though, Bait Zubair not yet but friends have seen the exhibits, however, the Portuguese oddity is one blade I would like to look at and to ask where did it appear from and when? Portuguese Swords tended to be Rapier style... or at least the few I have owned were... I would like to examine any broadsword of that period pre 1650 in Muscat museums...though I am aware of certain exhibits that have a shall we say "dubious recent history". It would indeed be odd to discover a Portuguese blade of pre 1650 vintage on a post 1744 hilt !! but I suspect that is all it will be.

Meanwhile I continue to help build a strong reference library on this subject and I believe we are healthier for it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Regarding the curved 'kattara' (using the generally held term for Omani swords with cylindrical hilt), these I think would be likely to have evolved from these type hilts being placed on 'trade' or perhaps even 'surplus' European blades entering Omani trade sphere. This would most likely have occurred post the hypothetical mid 18th century benchmark for these type hilts.

While the open, guardless hilt is certainly not a unique characteristic of course, and is well known in swords such as the shashka In Central Asia and certain other instances. Obviously we cannot arbitrarily presume influences of these toward the broadsword with such hilt which became known in association with these pageantry events mid18th century, but by the same token cannot ignore the potential.

It would seem to me that these style hilts becoming popularized in these clearly very important traditional events might be adopted into actual weapons intended for regular military use. The 'cross over' of weapons commonly held to be 'non combat' ceremonial or dress weapons in many cases fail to recognize that often such weapons, like the smallsword and other military officers swords are in fact sully capable of deadly use.

Also, many true combat level arms are used in various traditional ceremonies, with sword dances in Scotland, India, Africa, and many other cases. Despite use of combat weapons in these, the production of less formidable blades on similiar hilt forms was common as well as the continuation of these kinds of ceremonies sometimes called for less potential for accidental harm to participants.

Returning to the original question of the curved blades, I think as noted these probably were the result of availability of these blades in the trade spheres and preferences of local consumers. Obviously the sabre had become highly favored throughout Arabia as well as many of the cultural spheres, and even in North Africa, where broadswords typically reigned supreme from the Sudan into Saharan regions...sabres such as the Manding form in Mali and contiguous areas and that of Tuareg regions termed 'aljuinar' were present by the 19th century.
As with the Manding swords, it seems most of the sabre blades were German with names like FW Holler and some French examples, but I have seen even British blades with MOLE.

I have often noticed and often mentioned that it would seem there are compelling similarities between the Manding sabres and their open cylindrical hilts and the Omani hilts. The interesting hilt style is of course quite contrary to the typical crossguard form hilts of takouba and kaskara as well as the military hilts of the sabres which often provided curved blades.
This has always led me to the well established connection with these Saharan regions via caravan routes into eastern Africa and ultimately Zanzibar, where the Omani Sultanate thrived in trade.

When the other broadsword with cylindrical hilt, the Maasai 'seme' comes to mind, it becomes even more tempting to consider these routes of diffusion for these type hilts. The availability and increased favor of the sabre may well have carried across these same routes, and conversely toward Oman, in these 19th century times.

Again, all admittedly speculation, however with somewhat compelling plausibility I would think. Hopefully I have not digressed too much in trying to offer my views.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Regarding the curved 'kattara' (using the generally held term for Omani swords with cylindrical hilt), these I think would be likely to have evolved from these type hilts being placed on 'trade' or perhaps even 'surplus' European blades entering Omani trade sphere. This would most likely have occurred post the hypothetical mid 18th century benchmark for these type hilts.

While the open, guardless hilt is certainly not a unique characteristic of course, and is well known in swords such as the shashka In Central Asia and certain other instances. Obviously we cannot arbitrarily presume influences of these toward the broadsword with such hilt which became known in association with these pageantry events mid18th century, but by the same token cannot ignore the potential.

It would seem to me that these style hilts becoming popularized in these clearly very important traditional events might be adopted into actual weapons intended for regular military use. The 'cross over' of weapons commonly held to be 'non combat' ceremonial or dress weapons in many cases fail to recognize that often such weapons, like the smallsword and other military officers swords are in fact sully capable of deadly use.

Also, many true combat level arms are used in various traditional ceremonies, with sword dances in Scotland, India, Africa, and many other cases. Despite use of combat weapons in these, the production of less formidable blades on similiar hilt forms was common as well as the continuation of these kinds of ceremonies sometimes called for less potential for accidental harm to participants.

Returning to the original question of the curved blades, I think as noted these probably were the result of availability of these blades in the trade spheres and preferences of local consumers. Obviously the sabre had become highly favored throughout Arabia as well as many of the cultural spheres, and even in North Africa, where broadswords typically reigned supreme from the Sudan into Saharan regions...sabres such as the Manding form in Mali and contiguous areas and that of Tuareg regions termed 'aljuinar' were present by the 19th century.
As with the Manding swords, it seems most of the sabre blades were German with names like FW Holler and some French examples, but I have seen even British blades with MOLE.

I have often noticed and often mentioned that it would seem there are compelling similarities between the Manding sabres and their open cylindrical hilts and the Omani hilts. The interesting hilt style is of course quite contrary to the typical crossguard form hilts of takouba and kaskara as well as the military hilts of the sabres which often provided curved blades.
This has always led me to the well established connection with these Saharan regions via caravan routes into eastern Africa and ultimately Zanzibar, where the Omani Sultanate thrived in trade.

When the other broadsword with cylindrical hilt, the Maasai 'seme' comes to mind, it becomes even more tempting to consider these routes of diffusion for these type hilts. The availability and increased favor of the sabre may well have carried across these same routes, and conversely toward Oman, in these 19th century times.

Again, all admittedly speculation, however with somewhat compelling plausibility I would think. Hopefully I have not digressed too much in trying to offer my views.

Hi Jim,
I should point out that it is not the curved Omani sword at issue here, but the straight fighting bladed Omani hilted sword, about which Gavin and Ibrahiim are at loggerheads. I do not like the word FAKE particularly, but since it has been well used to describe these so-called "nonexistant" swords made by suppliers to the tourist market, then the word should also sit squarely on Khanjars which are being modern made and sold at exhorbitant prices to the unwitting tourist. These also would then be classified as FAKES.

[Jim McDougall]

Exactly Stu, and realizing that the curved kattara was of course off topic, I tried to address that aspect as well as trying to express my views toward the dancing/combat etc. issues.

I also personally pretty much detest the unfortunate term 'fake' , especially in the world of ethnographic arms. While obviously there are commercial exploitations of many distinct weapon forms which are made explicitly to be hawked to wide eyed tourists. However there are many examples of such forms which are modernly produced as part of the traditional costume and accoutrements worn in accord with local customs, and made observing established traditional guidelines. This is at least the understanding I have in many accounts I have been made aware of with these kinds of circumstances.
It does seem that in this context, often tourists will try to purchase a weapon actually being worn by an individual, in thier hopes of acquiring an 'authentic' traditional weapon over a 'bazaar' piece from off a display table. At least temporally they feel they have acquired an item from the tribal context which they are attempting to 'experience. In such cases, the individual who relinquishes his weapon for sale simply replaces it. While industriously off center in degree, the weapons themselves do have also in degree some level of interpretive authenticity.

It would be incredibly naieve to assume that many weapons are not indeed produced expressly to be hawked in bazaars or shops for the less adventurous or time constrained souvenier hunters. Again, as collectors, I think that there can never be too much knowledge at hand, and it is incumbent on that collector to be wary of these conditions and of course caveat emptor.

Again to the topic at loggerheads...there can be no doubt that weapons (regardless of term, in this case the Omani broadswords long generally termed as 'kattara') used in pageantry events have been produced expressly for that purpose. It does not seem inconceivable that equivilent examples of said type might have been produced as combat or military arms. As I noted, by the same token, the availability of imported trade blades or already mounted examples certainly might have become used in certain cases in these pageants.
What has been said is that the inflexibility of certain blades would in most cases impair the key element of the exhibition of swords, being the undulation and movement of the blades and thier effects. Again, certainly there might be cases where fully functional combat level bladed weapons might have been used.

In my own opinion, I cannot see where there must be hard and fast rules or circumstances dictating which swords by nature of thier blades must be confined to specific use by the varying degree of blade flexibility. Obviously in cases of extremely flimsy blades, they would serve poorly in actual combat, but as these are slashing weapons in a secondary use situation it seems they might have served for lack of better weapon.

These situations would be toward much earlier instances as in more modern times, the use of guns and bayonets would be of course in place in combat circumstances, and there would be no place for such traditional swords.
This then would again look toward this discussion at hand, and it would seem clear that in earlier times, there were indeed combat swords and lighter ceremonial swords of the straight blade, cylinder hilt form.

It is duly noted that at present, and in more recent years, examples of these same form swords have been produced, whether to serve as implements in the pageantry described or of course, in the cottage industry of weapons for souvenier hunters and unwary collectors. In my impression, there are apparantly some artisans and dealers who perform refurbishing of some of these sword forms using authentic components and traditionally observed methods of restoration. As long as properly described and presented, these I believe are not within the again unfortunate, 'fake' classification, and should be accepted by collectors for exactly what they are.

[kahnjar1]

Hi Jim,
I have to agree with the last part of your last paragraph above, where you mention new built/restored items being passed off as genuine old collectors pieces. As we all know by now these are being openly advertised on the Net at huge prices, and with no mention that they are not genuine old pieces. So as you state, Caveat Emptor.
With regard to the "Loggerheads issue", I do not see a resolve here unless there is progress made by ALL parties towards the acceptance that JUST MAYBE there COULD BE swords of the Omani Saif type with stiff fighting blades.
Also it should be born in mind that this is a DISCUSSION Forum, the opinions written here are only the opinions of the writer, and should not necessarily be taken as 100% correct. The unfortunate thing here is that there appears to be absolutely no room for movement, or anyone else's view.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Jim,
I should point out that it is not the curved Omani sword at issue here, but the straight fighting bladed Omani hilted sword, about which Gavin and Ibrahiim are at loggerheads. I do not like the word FAKE particularly, but since it has been well used to describe these so-called "nonexistant" swords made by suppliers to the tourist market, then the word should also sit squarely on Khanjars which are being modern made and sold at exhorbitant prices to the unwitting tourist. These also would then be classified as FAKES.

Salaams Khanjar 1 ~You write with a bitter taste in your pen...no?

It is a fact that the two styles are called Sayf or Saif for the straight dancer and Kattarah for the great curved sword. Im not sure if the collectors care one way or the other what they are called in Oman and I gave up worrying about that ages ago.

Be advised that ethnographic arms generally applies to collectors of such weapons that are not in vogue/newly made/used/ today... For antiques part of their charm may in fact be because they are artefacts used in battles before... a long time ago. In fact a lot of collectors tend to ringfence more modern weapons because of this fact. Weapons in some countries, however, are made as a continuum of that process i.e. They never fell from grace... they are still worn in honour of the forefathers and they are still made new today. A new Omani Khanjar expertly made will no doubt in future become a collectors item and joins the long respected and honourable process of antiquity in due course. This is the peculiar position in Oman.

Naturally many Omani weapons are heirloom items which almost never get sold but are passed down the family line... they quite often come in for repair but don't usually appear for sale. Equally local people also demand brand new pieces... made in the time honoured way with the same tools and by expert craftsmen who learned the trade from their fathers and who still even use the same old tools. On top of that there are some workshops in India and now in China that do cheap copies and which also do appear mixed all together in the souks in particular Sharjah and Muscat ~ mixed with stuff from the Yemen and Saudia as well as Syria and as those countries come under pressure internally the percentage of stuff from these regions climbs ..

I estimate the level of non Omani gear in Muttrah is somewhere in the region of 80 to 90% but in Sharjah it's different and worse .. The vast bulk of it is non UAE..with authentic and mixed fake work eminating from Afghanistan, India and China... and everywhere else ... about 99% fake.

I use the word "fake" and I mean it. A sword deliberately cross hilted after 1970 for selling onto the tourist market with a 19th C. blade (or any other age) from the Red Sea regions with a hilt of Omani style and sold as an Omani Sword is a Fake. A khanjar made for the Omani market isn't. A Khanjar made as a deliberate fake aimed at hoodwinking tourists is.

It is a matter of experience...Countless hours spent in the old workshops of The Baatinah, Nizwa, Sanau and Muscat coupled with the experience of many decades studying and talking to the makers... it rather undermines your case; The fact that a few fake Khanjars may be encountered in Sharjah Souk (or other) is unrelated to the canny, crafty way the Muttrah sword, cross hilting, situation has inserted itself since 1970. Thats life.

What is important is not to grumble about it... ... but conversely to inform this important international panel of collectors so that they may be aware of it. I mean you do realise that buying in any souk it must be down to the individual not to get stupidly ripped off ! The best defence against that surely is knowledge..and Forum is honourably packed with that.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Regarding the curved 'kattara' (using the generally held term for Omani swords with cylindrical hilt), these I think would be likely to have evolved from these type hilts being placed on 'trade' or perhaps even 'surplus' European blades entering Omani trade sphere. This would most likely have occurred post the hypothetical mid 18th century benchmark for these type hilts.

While the open, guardless hilt is certainly not a unique characteristic of course, and is well known in swords such as the shashka In Central Asia and certain other instances. Obviously we cannot arbitrarily presume influences of these toward the broadsword with such hilt which became known in association with these pageantry events mid18th century, but by the same token cannot ignore the potential.

It would seem to me that these style hilts becoming popularized in these clearly very important traditional events might be adopted into actual weapons intended for regular military use. The 'cross over' of weapons commonly held to be 'non combat' ceremonial or dress weapons in many cases fail to recognize that often such weapons, like the smallsword and other military officers swords are in fact sully capable of deadly use.

Also, many true combat level arms are used in various traditional ceremonies, with sword dances in Scotland, India, Africa, and many other cases. Despite use of combat weapons in these, the production of less formidable blades on similiar hilt forms was common as well as the continuation of these kinds of ceremonies sometimes called for less potential for accidental harm to participants.

Returning to the original question of the curved blades, I think as noted these probably were the result of availability of these blades in the trade spheres and preferences of local consumers. Obviously the sabre had become highly favored throughout Arabia as well as many of the cultural spheres, and even in North Africa, where broadswords typically reigned supreme from the Sudan into Saharan regions...sabres such as the Manding form in Mali and contiguous areas and that of Tuareg regions termed 'aljuinar' were present by the 19th century.
As with the Manding swords, it seems most of the sabre blades were German with names like FW Holler and some French examples, but I have seen even British blades with MOLE.

I have often noticed and often mentioned that it would seem there are compelling similarities between the Manding sabres and their open cylindrical hilts and the Omani hilts. The interesting hilt style is of course quite contrary to the typical crossguard form hilts of takouba and kaskara as well as the military hilts of the sabres which often provided curved blades.
This has always led me to the well established connection with these Saharan regions via caravan routes into eastern Africa and ultimately Zanzibar, where the Omani Sultanate thrived in trade.

When the other broadsword with cylindrical hilt, the Maasai 'seme' comes to mind, it becomes even more tempting to consider these routes of diffusion for these type hilts. The availability and increased favor of the sabre may well have carried across these same routes, and conversely toward Oman, in these 19th century times.

Again, all admittedly speculation, however with somewhat compelling plausibility I would think. Hopefully I have not digressed too much in trying to offer my views.

Salaams Jim ~ Thank you for your detailed post. Not withstanding the situation regarding The Omani Dancing Sword I found your comments well placed about the curved weapon ~ it begs the question where/when did the long Omani Hilt originate? Which sword was first on the scene?; The Dancing Sword of 1744 or the Curved Kattarah? Is it possible that they arrived at the same time?

It would be plausible to suppose that the Mandingo long hilt transmitted onto a long Omani hilt form via a slavers sword pre 1744 and became the accepted Omani Longhilt but there is not enough evidence yet... In fact the timings are interesting since if the form suddenly appeared direct from Mandingo to Omani Dancing sword it could be that it was then transmitted onto the curved Kattarah style...in 1744... so we are in full circle.

I continue to look at blades and hope to get in again to the Museums in Muscat to see if the dates can be separated. It would be nice to know. Does it make any diffrence to the connundrum about the odd stiff blades on Omani Longhilts? I'm not sure.

I was lucky enough to have Bin Gabaishas son (Bin Gabaisha of Thesiger fame) over this evening for a chat and he reports his father is alive and well and still buying and selling camels in the UAE. It struck me that the photo of Bin Gabaisha and bin Gabina looked similar to a group sketch of Omani tribal infantry I saw recently and I was going to put the two together for comparison. I digress....

The date of 1744 seems pretty well cemented in by the Museums and is the official start date of the Bussaidi Dynasty... thus the 1744 is taken as the beginning of the Dancing Sword.

I don't believe that the open connical flat hilt is in any way related to other swords without a cross guard except perhaps the Mandingo. It seems quite clear that the dancer was just for pageants and funoon activity.. though the few visitors to Oman in the 19th C. have commented on the weapon and the swordsmen; I think this is a case of mistaken identity... they looked fierce... the swords looked real... but were only for the traditions.

I see the straight dancing sword as carried by tribal infantry as part of their equipment but only as a badge of office or identity as Omani Guards/Military and for applauding the Royalty/ Bussaidi Dynasty.. not for use as weapons. The specifics are precise in this regard... see #1 for the comparison in design and the fact that the Terrs was awarded directly linking the two swords together...and both razor sharp on both edges, round tipped and with the Terrs Shield.

The question of a rigid stiff blade is rejected since the line of such weapons has been identified as souk made/ modified since 1970. It seems logical that anyone who wants to prove otherwise that swords of this nature existed prior to that need only prove that earlier provenance. I tried but simply couldn't.. because they only appeared after that date in the structure I have described from Red Sea Blades.

Would I otherwise suggest that there was no such thing ? Perhaps I should have said.."The Omani fighting straight sword based upon the dancing sword but with a stiff blade is an Omani fighting sword".... That would be completely untrue !

Where does a blade, imported from Red Sea regions, which has been tang extended, and fitted up with an Omani long hilt, after 1970, in Muttrah, deliberately for tourists fit? Is it a real Omani sword, after all it was made in Oman (partly) ? The curved Kattarah has often an imported Euroblade with an Omani Hilt ... that's an Omani sword so why isn't this one? I've made the comparison before but if a Japanese blade is fitted to a Norwegian hilt in the same time frame is it a Norwegian sword?

It is for this reason that I categorise the stiff bladed version as a fake.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The date of 1744 seems pretty well cemented in by the Museums and is the official start date of the Bussaidi Dynasty... thus the 1744 is taken as the beginning of the Dancing Sword.

Yet without a single piece dated to this period (at least that I can recall popping up on these myriad threads about the type) it is rather difficult to say what it looked like no? Surely for a sword designed as an icon something from the 18th century attributed to a particular person should at least be around?

Frankly I can't recall exactly what the museum told you, perhaps you can re-link the post where you detailed that? It didn't come up on a search easily.

The question of a rigid stiff blade is rejected since the line of such weapons has been identified as souk made/ modified since 1970. It seems logical that anyone who wants to prove otherwise that swords of this nature existed prior to that need only prove that earlier provenance. I tried but simply couldn't.. because they only appeared after that date in the structure I have described from Red Sea Blades.

Perhaps this would be better phrased that you have identified blades of this nature being made recently. However, this does not categorically rule out older combinations of the same predating the timeline you've given (1970).

You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century.

Since we haven't seen a single 19th century piece with provenance of ANY style (at least none when I asked about it!) regarding the straight bladed form, this all seems rather hasty.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Yet without a single piece dated to this period (at least that I can recall popping up on these myriad threads about the type) it is rather difficult to say what it looked like no? Surely for a sword designed as an icon something from the 18th century attributed to a particular person should at least be around?

Frankly I can't recall exactly what the museum told you, perhaps you can re-link the post where you detailed that? It didn't come up on a search easily.



Perhaps this would be better phrased that you have identified blades of this nature being made recently. However, this does not categorically rule out older combinations of the same predating the timeline you've given (1970).

You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century.

Since we haven't seen a single 19th century piece with provenance of ANY style (at least none when I asked about it!) regarding the straight bladed form, this all seems rather hasty.

Salaams Iain, Did you just say Hasty? The Museum statements confirm the sword as a dancing sword only. I cant recall where it is in the Myriad either but its not a problem as I have the documents here... and I am in the National Museum again this week on research. The Omani Dancing Sword was instigated by the Bussaidi Dynasty in or about 1744 at the beginning of the Dynasty and it is still used for the same thing today... Pageant march past mimic fighting and Traditions only... see funoon.

The notion that there is another straight stiff fighting version on a long hilt is without substance and may be confused by the influx of Red Sea variants cross mounted onto Omani Long Hilts... since 1970.

(You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century). Can you tell me where I said that please??

I assume that the theory behind the 1744 dancing sword is now generally accepted and that insofar as the dancing sword is concerned it ... the straight flexible blade was never used in fighting... and only for Pageants.

However regarding the strange stiff sword which I have described as from the Red Sea regions there is some question? and so that when I am in the Museum I can have that verified and at the same time I can get some old blade shots.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain, Did you just say Hasty? The Museum statements confirm the sword as a dancing sword only. I cant recall where it is in the Myriad either but its not a problem as I have the documents here... and I am in the National Museum again this week on research. The Omani Dancing Sword was instigated by the Bussaidi Dynasty in or about 1744 at the beginning of the Dynasty and it is still used for the same thing today... Pageant march past mimic fighting and Traditions only... see funoon.

Whatever documentation you have - as time allows it would be interesting to see. I assume it would require some translation. But we have a few Arabic speaking members, so perhaps you could scan and share originals.

(You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century). Can you tell me where I said that please??

I was paraphrasing, see post #72 of yours, the jist being your focus is on research conducted within Oman.

I assume that the theory behind the 1744 dancing sword is now generally accepted and that insofar as the dancing sword is concerned it ... the straight flexible blade was never used in fighting... and only for Pageants.

However regarding the strange stiff sword which I have described as from the Red Sea regions there is some question? and so that when I am in the Museum I can have that verified and at the same time I can get some old blade shots.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

It's an interesting theory, I'm not involved enough around these particular weapons to judge it as a whole. It's not my field, still I enjoy occasionally commenting on these threads. Personally I think there's still some logical gaps missing within it which I've mentioned before, but just in case the museum visit can answer a few of them, off the top of my head...

1. A reason why the "dance sword" happens to use blade forms that closely mirror the proportion and design (fullers and geometry) of European blades.

2. As above but goes for blade marks.

These really are two points I've never felt there was a satisfactory answer for in your theory, suddenly there's a shift from a fighting weapon that happens to have wider, shorter, flat blades, to a dance only item that somehow manages to have an almost identical form and set of features to European blades seen elsewhere in the region...

All the best,
Iain

[Gavin Nugent]

An expanation of item two in Ricks presentation of rare swords would be interesting;

http://www.vikingsword.com/library/r...ldomwootz1.pdf

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Whatever documentation you have - as time allows it would be interesting to see. I assume it would require some translation. But we have a few Arabic speaking members, so perhaps you could scan and share originals.




I was paraphrasing, see post #72 of yours, the jist being your focus is on research conducted within Oman.




It's an interesting theory, I'm not involved enough around these particular weapons to judge it as a whole. It's not my field, still I enjoy occasionally commenting on these threads. Personally I think there's still some logical gaps missing within it which I've mentioned before, but just in case the museum visit can answer a few of them, off the top of my head...

1. A reason why the "dance sword" happens to use blade forms that closely mirror the proportion and design (fullers and geometry) of European blades.

2. As above but goes for blade marks.

These really are two points I've never felt there was a satisfactory answer for in your theory, suddenly there's a shift from a fighting weapon that happens to have wider, shorter, flat blades, to a dance only item that somehow manages to have an almost identical form and set of features to European blades seen elsewhere in the region...

All the best,
Iain

Salaams Iain ~ Last point first... but thank you for your input and I have a clear mandate ahead to really try to access the Museums data banks to verify the points I have already made and which is generally proven in their record at the National Archives and in documentation I already hold. Regarding the sudden shift from fighting weapon to dance item...Actually there was no sudden shift in my perception .. but what I did was to split the two weapons onto separate threads since they are of very different concepts and make up... though cleverly linked in that the two are sharp on both sides and round tipped and the Terrs Shield was given to both weapons. Much of the background is on Kattara for Comments but I felt each sword needed its own space. There was no sudden shift at the time it changed in Oman...The shift happened in 1744..when the dancing sword materialised. It can be thought of as The Bussaidi Dynasty Sword. You will see that I have compared the two swords and it is plausible that the sharp two edged weapon with the round tip style was consulted and transfered to the dancing sword along with the Terrs Shield...

Your next point about likeness to European sword style intrigues me...I mean what is a sword... Its a long knife...etc etc how many variations are there on the basic form? This is not, however, a copy of a European sword nor is it an imported dancing blade from Europe but is a product of local manufacture. The odd thing about the dancing blade is its flexibility... It bends nearly double easily. Its got a flat spatulate round tip. It has one or three fullers of varying length some the entire length of the sword. Its got a weird hilt almost more Japanese looking than European...(though likely to have Mandingo influence) Non of the blade marks are done in Europe... all the ones I've ever seen were done here and are Islamic, British Raj, Persian, or very rough copies of the wolf mark...locally applied.. The Old Omani Battle Sword wasn't taken from a European style... but it looks similar though you could argue that the Omanis copied the Abbasiid and the Abbasiid took their design from the Greek etc etc ...what makes you think this is a European design ? because it looks like it?...They (the dancing Swords) don't handle like European Swords. In fact to get a feel for balance they have to be practiced with using the Terrs Shield ... It really is a remarkably different feeling.

Why was it not simply an extended flexible version of the Old Omani Battle Sword on a long hilt?

Lastly I see you quote of something I didnt say ... and out of context ... No I certainly didn't say that Iain...but to close I will attempt to get a reasonable Museum document covering what I have already reported.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.