Flintlock from Morocco for comment

donnydogs · 15th April 2013, 09:09 PM

Thanks Rick for your conformation of the I.D. of the gun and the added information about the lock. I really liked your pictures.
As for your ideas about the stock: everything you said makes sense and is likely to be true. Especially when the average LOP for these guns is 11 to 12 inches. The LOP on a current youth rifle is 12 to 13 inches. So these people really had to be as short as you said.

But I still have the slightest amount of doubt that the stock is against the shoulder when shooting. Here are some other ideas for discussion. 1. If the butt of the stock was to be put against the shoulder wouldn’t the butt and the corners be somewhat rounded? My gun actually has some what sharp metal on the corners. 2. The spacer could be there to provide wood grain at 90 degrees to the stock grain for strength. Without the spacer the flared design of the corners would be prone to split off easily along the direction of the grain. 3. If the stock is not put against the shoulder why is it there? Its function may be simply to provide a flat surface to set the gun while it is loaded from the muzzle.
Pistols are shot only using hands maybe a light recoiling rifle could be also.

rickystl · 28th April 2013, 05:26 PM

Hi Donny. Thanks for your last reply. I've been traveling and have not had much of a chance to respond. You present some interesting additional questions.
My therories and conclusions on the styling of these guns are also based on my experiences loading and firing actual specimiens. Warning: do not fire these guns without a new barrel liner.
The more I look at the photos of your gun, the more convinced I am that it was made for a youth. The barrel on most of the Moroccan guns are about 42" or longer - usually longer. Of course there are original examples with cut down barrels, but the barrel on y your gun still has a cannon style muzzle. So it appears the gun was made with a 33" barrel. The combination of the barrel length and the shorter than normal LOP brings me to that conclusion.
One of the theories is that these guns were fired from the chest vs the shoulder? I don't believe that is correct. It is very awkward, and in any case there would not be no need for a rear sight. And every one of these I've seen has a rear sight. When I shoulder these guns to shoot, I simply shift my shoulder forward a slightly - which adds about 2" - and the gun is actually fairly comfortable to shoot.
Another theory of the flat butt stock was to aid in loading - allowing the butt stock to be placed on the ground - while on horse/camel. I don't believe this one either. Even the longest barrel would not allow convenient loading. The gun would not be long enough to reach the ground to load from horseback much less camelback. No, I believe at least the upper portion of the butt stock curve was used as an aid to carry under the arm pit while riding. Also note these guns - even with long barrels - are relatively light. An aid to carrying in the mountainous region while riding. The thin fore stock is very delicate, requiring multiple barrel bands fore strength.
If this style of butt stock were not made in segments, it would require a very wide piece of walnut, which would be more difficult to obtain. Many of these segments were made from horn, ivory, etc., depending on the decoration and quality of the gun.
All this said, there are two other styles of the Moroccan snaphaunce muskets, from different Regions, that differ primarily their different butt stock styles and the decoration. One of which is a bigger mystery than this style

I'm still working on all these theories

Thanks again for posting one of my favorite topics. Rick.

donnydogs · 1st May 2013, 12:33 AM

Hi Rick, Thanks for considering all my ideas. I think you are correct that my gun must be a sized for a youth. Based on your experience it is the only answer. I have been trying to imagine shooting accurately from a galloping horse. Maybe they madly rode into a crowd of the enemy and shot at such a short range that they did not need to aim with precision. In this situation the gun need not be held by any particular technique - somehow quickly get the gun pointed and pull the trigger. The target may be just a yard or less from the muzzle. But if the situation did allow for a more careful shot from the shoulder then the sights would be used.
Here is a link to some great photos some showing Moroccan guns being shot from horseback. http://www.flickr.com/photos/fedala/sets/851624/

rickystl · 4th May 2013, 06:21 PM

Hi Donny. OHHHHHH.......thank you so much for the Link and photos. I've never seen these before. I'll save the Link. Thank you!

I notice in the photos that they are carrying newer made guns with percussion locks vs flintlocks, which would be much more convenient firing from horse back. Wish I knew who built those guns!!
Meantime, here is a photo of an old French postcard I have. Look at the length of the barrel on that Snaphaunce gun!!

Rick.

donnydogs · 6th May 2013, 05:23 PM

Hi Rick, Wow, that post card shows longest barrel I have ever seen. Plus it shows shooting from the shoulder in a standard manner. I am glad that you liked the photos from the link. It is great to see the guns in their cultural setting. Also the horses were so beautiful and dramatic. On another subject, I have no idea of the collector interest in Moroccan guns like mine. Of course I would not ask for a value on my gun. My gun will stay in the family. But my son recently saw a moukhala at a gun show where they were asking $1800. I thought that must be very high. I wonder if you know an auction or some other site where I could watch the selling prices just to get an idea of the price range for these guns. I enjoy all your replies, thanks very much.

4th May 2013, 06:21 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Donny. OHHHHHH.......thank you so much for the Link and photos. I've never seen these before. I'll save the Link. Thank you! I notice in the photos that they are carrying newer made guns with percussion locks vs flintlocks, which would be much more convenient firing from horse back. Wish I knew who built those guns!! Meantime, here is a photo of an old French postcard I have. Look at the length of the barrel on that Snaphaunce gun!! Rick. Attached Images

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15th April 2013, 09:09 PM	#1
donnydogs Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 6	Thanks Rick for your conformation of the I.D. of the gun and the added information about the lock. I really liked your pictures. As for your ideas about the stock: everything you said makes sense and is likely to be true. Especially when the average LOP for these guns is 11 to 12 inches. The LOP on a current youth rifle is 12 to 13 inches. So these people really had to be as short as you said. But I still have the slightest amount of doubt that the stock is against the shoulder when shooting. Here are some other ideas for discussion. 1. If the butt of the stock was to be put against the shoulder wouldn’t the butt and the corners be somewhat rounded? My gun actually has some what sharp metal on the corners. 2. The spacer could be there to provide wood grain at 90 degrees to the stock grain for strength. Without the spacer the flared design of the corners would be prone to split off easily along the direction of the grain. 3. If the stock is not put against the shoulder why is it there? Its function may be simply to provide a flat surface to set the gun while it is loaded from the muzzle. Pistols are shot only using hands maybe a light recoiling rifle could be also.

28th April 2013, 05:26 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Donny. Thanks for your last reply. I've been traveling and have not had much of a chance to respond. You present some interesting additional questions. My therories and conclusions on the styling of these guns are also based on my experiences loading and firing actual specimiens. Warning: do not fire these guns without a new barrel liner. The more I look at the photos of your gun, the more convinced I am that it was made for a youth. The barrel on most of the Moroccan guns are about 42" or longer - usually longer. Of course there are original examples with cut down barrels, but the barrel on y your gun still has a cannon style muzzle. So it appears the gun was made with a 33" barrel. The combination of the barrel length and the shorter than normal LOP brings me to that conclusion. One of the theories is that these guns were fired from the chest vs the shoulder? I don't believe that is correct. It is very awkward, and in any case there would not be no need for a rear sight. And every one of these I've seen has a rear sight. When I shoulder these guns to shoot, I simply shift my shoulder forward a slightly - which adds about 2" - and the gun is actually fairly comfortable to shoot. Another theory of the flat butt stock was to aid in loading - allowing the butt stock to be placed on the ground - while on horse/camel. I don't believe this one either. Even the longest barrel would not allow convenient loading. The gun would not be long enough to reach the ground to load from horseback much less camelback. No, I believe at least the upper portion of the butt stock curve was used as an aid to carry under the arm pit while riding. Also note these guns - even with long barrels - are relatively light. An aid to carrying in the mountainous region while riding. The thin fore stock is very delicate, requiring multiple barrel bands fore strength. If this style of butt stock were not made in segments, it would require a very wide piece of walnut, which would be more difficult to obtain. Many of these segments were made from horn, ivory, etc., depending on the decoration and quality of the gun. All this said, there are two other styles of the Moroccan snaphaunce muskets, from different Regions, that differ primarily their different butt stock styles and the decoration. One of which is a bigger mystery than this style I'm still working on all these theories Thanks again for posting one of my favorite topics. Rick.

1st May 2013, 12:33 AM	#3
donnydogs Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 6	Hi Rick, Thanks for considering all my ideas. I think you are correct that my gun must be a sized for a youth. Based on your experience it is the only answer. I have been trying to imagine shooting accurately from a galloping horse. Maybe they madly rode into a crowd of the enemy and shot at such a short range that they did not need to aim with precision. In this situation the gun need not be held by any particular technique - somehow quickly get the gun pointed and pull the trigger. The target may be just a yard or less from the muzzle. But if the situation did allow for a more careful shot from the shoulder then the sights would be used. Here is a link to some great photos some showing Moroccan guns being shot from horseback. http://www.flickr.com/photos/fedala/sets/851624/

6th May 2013, 05:23 PM	#5
donnydogs Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 6	Hi Rick, Wow, that post card shows longest barrel I have ever seen. Plus it shows shooting from the shoulder in a standard manner. I am glad that you liked the photos from the link. It is great to see the guns in their cultural setting. Also the horses were so beautiful and dramatic. On another subject, I have no idea of the collector interest in Moroccan guns like mine. Of course I would not ask for a value on my gun. My gun will stay in the family. But my son recently saw a moukhala at a gun show where they were asking $1800. I thought that must be very high. I wonder if you know an auction or some other site where I could watch the selling prices just to get an idea of the price range for these guns. I enjoy all your replies, thanks very much.