What pamor is this?

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by David

Interesting Ferrylaki. To me there is almost nothing in the dhapur of this keris that would indicate it's origin as Balinese. It wouldn't be the first time i have been wrong of course, but if you could post some other provenanced Balinese examples that have ricikan that are executed in this manner i would love to see them. As for the pamor, i am impressed by your skills to be able to determine that much based on this one single overall image. Frankly i have based my opinion of origin more on the dhapur.

this keris is not the example of young bali. this is an old bali keris.
I found that bali keris could be defided in two. the old one (circa majapahit) and the young ( the same periode with mataram and nomnoman).

the both has a quite different in size and dhapur. the old one usually smaller.
but...the both consistenly apply the same methode of making its pamor.
you can find in easily on pamor melumah. every layr is so thick and it would only a few pamor layers.

I hope you can understand my explanation.

and David, have you ever consider that this keris has already been modified from its original ?

[Gustav]

Bali is an interesting thought.

Against it would speek the falling and quite narrow Gandhik. The majority of Bali kerisses don't have Pamor Gonjo.

If there is a bigger and somewhat rounded Bawang Sebungkul, this keris couldn't be Bali or very old. Unfortunately from this picture absolutely nothing could be said about the quality, even the shape of the features of Ricikan.

[David]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

this keris is not the example of young bali. this is an old bali keris.
I found that bali keris could be defided in two. the old one (circa majapahit) and the young ( the same periode with mataram and nomnoman).

the both has a quite different in size and dhapur. the old one usually smaller.
but...the both consistenly apply the same methode of making its pamor.
you can find in easily on pamor melumah. every layr is so thick and it would only a few pamor layers.

I hope you can understand my explanation.

and David, have you ever consider that this keris has already been modified from its original ?

I understand your explanation, i just don't see how you can be making these observations based upon this one overall photograph.
I do agree that with Mojopahit era Bali keris we would be likely to find more similarities between Javanese and Bali keris, but i am afraid that i do not have your skills to be able to determine that this particular keris is as old as that based on this one photo.

[A. G. Maisey]

I find these exchanges very interesting.

In fact, so interesting that I'm going to refrain from comment. Its not often I get this level of entertainment.

[Jean]

I just found that this kris is shown on page 132 of the book "Tafsir Keris", and is said to have belonged to the late General Subroto. It is described as having a dapur Pasopati and pamor Wos Wutah and to have been made by Empu Supo in Blambangan.
Regards

[Gustav]

I must say, I also have some reasons to be entertained now.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

I just found that this kris is shown on page 132 of the book "Tafsir Keris", and is said to have belonged to the late General Subroto. It is described as having a dapur Pasopati and pamor Wos Wutah and to have been made by Empu Supo in Blambangan.
Regards

hmmm....interesting indeed...

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by David

hmmm....interesting indeed...

well I must say I'd like to be entertained.
we must not consider the sandangan as a guide to 'tangguh'
lets just observe the keris.

Let us see the gandik, its tall and "rubuh"....which mean this gandik must have a "kembang kacang''. and it have kembang kacang indeed.
the question is " should it be POGOG or the normal shape?"
the front wadidang looks funny to me. I can imagine if only it has a normal shape of kembang kacang. it would be much-much better in shape. specially tha shape of front wadidang. its quite common that kembang kacang pogog would be a so nicely combined with a straight gandik. in other hand...kembang kacang pogog and a gandik rubuh (sloping gandik) like this one is a terrible combination.

then we can see the ODO-ODO.
it looks quite tall since the sogokan is also very very deep, tall, and looks wide also. the blade is thin so the odo-odo looks tall.

we can say that since the blade it self looks clean, (needs warangan).
but we can see the pamor is applied in a thin layers. this style of pamor application is very balinese .

how about the greneng? is it indicate an original shape or not? in my opinion its fine alright. its still original in shape.

honestly, I dont see any thing at all that indicate this keris revers to blambangan.

[Jean]

According to the book, this kris is deemed to have very strong magical powers and to select its owner, and it is only said to have been made in Blambangan by Empu Supo, not to be attributed to tangguh Blambangan.
I attach the picture of another kris with dapur Pasopati and having some similar features (and differences of course), it was made somewhere and some time ago by Empu Tartempion (well-known to French collectors only ) and it selected me as its new owner

[David]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

well I must say I'd like to be entertained.
we must not consider the sandangan as a guide to 'tangguh'
lets just observe the keris.

Let us see the gandik, its tall and "rubuh"....which mean this gandik must have a "kembang kacang''. and it have kembang kacang indeed.
the question is " should it be POGOG or the normal shape?"
the front wadidang looks funny to me. I can imagine if only it has a normal shape of kembang kacang. it would be much-much better in shape. specially tha shape of front wadidang. its quite common that kembang kacang pogog would be a so nicely combined with a straight gandik. in other hand...kembang kacang pogog and a gandik rubuh (sloping gandik) like this one is a terrible combination.

then we can see the ODO-ODO.
it looks quite tall since the sogokan is also very very deep, tall, and looks wide also. the blade is thin so the odo-odo looks tall.

we can say that since the blade it self looks clean, (needs warangan).
but we can see the pamor is applied in a thin layers. this style of pamor application is very balinese .

how about the greneng? is it indicate an original shape or not? in my opinion its fine alright. its still original in shape.

honestly, I dont see any thing at all that indicate this keris revers to blambangan.

So Ferrylaki, if i understand you correctly, from this one overall photo viewed on a computer screen you have been able to determine the following:
1. The gandik has been re-formed
2. the pamor layers are thin, which means this is a Bali keris
3. the blade is thin which makes the odo-odo look tall
4. The sogokan are "very, very deep"
5. the greneng has not been re-formed (does this look like Bali greneng to you?)
6. the tagguh is not Blambangan (though that was never stated)

You can really see all that in this one photograph? I am quite impressed by this skill.
Do you have any provenanced Bali keris to show us to help support your belief that this is an old Bali keris? Can you support your ideas in any way other than your own observations based on this one photograph?
Do you have any response to the fact that the very keris in question apparently appears in a notable book on keris attributed to Mpu Supo and described as Dhapur Pasopati with pamor Wos Wutah?