Chinese? matchlock for comments

David R · 28th February 2013, 12:05 PM

It looks pretty "right" to me, Chinese matchlocks always look a bit odd and put together. I think it is part of the traditional disdain of the Chinese for military stuff.

Mefidk · 28th February 2013, 03:52 PM

Thanks for the replies folks

Exactly what sort of gun it is I am not 100% sure, but it seems that there is broad agreement about the general region.

I am also pretty certain that this is not a 'new' gun, even the woodwork is not new, although newer than the barrel. It has been important enough for someone to repair the stock which had split and strengthen the repair with a screw - you can see it behind the trigger. The barrel shows signs of this being fired (a lot), and the corrosion that you can see is associated with this or is primarily under the barrel rings, especially the large steel one. When I got it there was a lot of active rust under there. The matchlock mechanism also shows signs of wear, at least suggesting that the mechanism has also been used a lot.

I guess this is not military, at least organised military since it does not have any markings, but it really is just a guess.

ward · 28th February 2013, 08:44 PM

The piece is right. China or the surrounding area is the location with that lock and form of stock. Age is a question. Guess from pics would be 19th century. A very similar form with a detachable lock was used by the montanyards and other various tribes in vietnam,annam,etc. Those particular ones were still in use during the vietnamese war and afterwards. Nice example.

trenchwarfare · 1st March 2013, 12:39 AM

The percussion gun in this lot, is of unknown origin. The flinters are all from Southeast Asia. Sorry for the far away shot. Couldn't get the closeup to upload.

estcrh · 1st March 2013, 09:34 AM

A Vietnamese matchlock.

trenchwarfare · 1st March 2013, 03:23 PM

Very nice piece estcrh. Any idea on what time-frame?

Mefidk · 1st March 2013, 04:06 PM

Indeed that looks like a very fine gun estcrh! Clearly not all these are roughly made items

Great display of Vietnamese weapons. There clearly is a lot of variation here so I guess attributing individual guns to regions and times is going to be particularly difficult in these cases unless we have some kind of provenance with them.

ward · 1st March 2013, 04:58 PM

The issue of attributing a origin of a piece is always pretty difficult. Usually you will go on the form of a piece and the motifs.

Age is often a question because of a few reasons. If the configuration of the piece worked for generations why change it. Another reason is economics the change over to percussion and cartridge weapons in many areas did not happen untill mid to late 20th century because these improvements cost to much money to operate or were simply not easilably obtained. The 3rd reason is tradition or religion.

Trade or capture of a piece also makes origins interesting. It is generally held that most of the montanyard barrells were imported from china. The locks differ from the chinese but the form of the gun is very similar.

Moving borders and influences also makes things difficult. just because the piece was made 50 or a hundred miles over one border or by a gun or sword smith traveling or relocated into a new area.

Now when geniune markings and original inscriptions and or dating is found on a piece with the rest of the form and motifs matching then you can say this piece was made in libya in 1812 by so and so. Otherwise whem most describe things as chineese 19th century, they are refering to a general style of a weapon from a region and from a approximate time frame when it was used.

estcrh · 1st March 2013, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

Very nice piece estcrh. Any idea on what time-frame?

This is from Artzi at oriental arms, with no mention of age, very small at 39 inches total and 28 inch barrel. I would guess from 18th to 19 century.

estcrh · 1st March 2013, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

The percussion gun in this lot, is of unknown origin. The flinters are all from Southeast Asia. Sorry for the far away shot. Couldn't get the closeup to upload.

Great picture, I would like to see that close up, send it to me and I will edit it down to an uploadable size and post if you want. Were was it taken, was it a gun show exhibit?

trenchwarfare · 2nd March 2013, 02:24 AM

I'm having some email issues. Here's a link to the post with the display. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16348.

Gavin Nugent · 2nd March 2013, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

The piece is right. China or the surrounding area is the location with that lock and form of stock. Age is a question. Guess from pics would be 19th century. A very similar form with a detachable lock was used by the montanyards and other various tribes in vietnam,annam,etc. Those particular ones were still in use during the vietnamese war and afterwards. Nice example.

To support what is noted by Ward, there are numerous images available on the net of Chinese soldiers with this form of gun. With the Chinese being so well spread throughout SEA and island areas, it may have been picked up anywhere but the form is Chinese. Osprey publications have drawings of similar, taken from photographic evidence.

Gavin

28th February 2013, 08:44 PM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	rifle The piece is right. China or the surrounding area is the location with that lock and form of stock. Age is a question. Guess from pics would be 19th century. A very similar form with a detachable lock was used by the montanyards and other various tribes in vietnam,annam,etc. Those particular ones were still in use during the vietnamese war and afterwards. Nice example.

1st March 2013, 12:39 AM	#4
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	The percussion gun in this lot, is of unknown origin. The flinters are all from Southeast Asia. Sorry for the far away shot. Couldn't get the closeup to upload. Attached Images

1st March 2013, 09:34 AM	#5
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	A Vietnamese matchlock. Attached Images

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28th February 2013, 12:05 PM	#1
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,148	It looks pretty "right" to me, Chinese matchlocks always look a bit odd and put together. I think it is part of the traditional disdain of the Chinese for military stuff.

28th February 2013, 03:52 PM	#2
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Thanks for the replies folks Exactly what sort of gun it is I am not 100% sure, but it seems that there is broad agreement about the general region. I am also pretty certain that this is not a 'new' gun, even the woodwork is not new, although newer than the barrel. It has been important enough for someone to repair the stock which had split and strengthen the repair with a screw - you can see it behind the trigger. The barrel shows signs of this being fired (a lot), and the corrosion that you can see is associated with this or is primarily under the barrel rings, especially the large steel one. When I got it there was a lot of active rust under there. The matchlock mechanism also shows signs of wear, at least suggesting that the mechanism has also been used a lot. I guess this is not military, at least organised military since it does not have any markings, but it really is just a guess.

1st March 2013, 03:23 PM	#6
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Very nice piece estcrh. Any idea on what time-frame?

1st March 2013, 04:06 PM	#7
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Indeed that looks like a very fine gun estcrh! Clearly not all these are roughly made items Great display of Vietnamese weapons. There clearly is a lot of variation here so I guess attributing individual guns to regions and times is going to be particularly difficult in these cases unless we have some kind of provenance with them.

1st March 2013, 04:58 PM	#8
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The issue of attributing a origin of a piece is always pretty difficult. Usually you will go on the form of a piece and the motifs. Age is often a question because of a few reasons. If the configuration of the piece worked for generations why change it. Another reason is economics the change over to percussion and cartridge weapons in many areas did not happen untill mid to late 20th century because these improvements cost to much money to operate or were simply not easilably obtained. The 3rd reason is tradition or religion. Trade or capture of a piece also makes origins interesting. It is generally held that most of the montanyard barrells were imported from china. The locks differ from the chinese but the form of the gun is very similar. Moving borders and influences also makes things difficult. just because the piece was made 50 or a hundred miles over one border or by a gun or sword smith traveling or relocated into a new area. Now when geniune markings and original inscriptions and or dating is found on a piece with the rest of the form and motifs matching then you can say this piece was made in libya in 1812 by so and so. Otherwise whem most describe things as chineese 19th century, they are refering to a general style of a weapon from a region and from a approximate time frame when it was used.

2nd March 2013, 02:24 AM	#11
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	I'm having some email issues. Here's a link to the post with the display. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16348.