East Javanese Keris(es) - Discussion

Jean · 27th February 2013, 10:11 AM

Thank you very much Alan for this detailed inspection and evaluation of my blade, it is truly amazing and I did not notice anything abnormal myself except the clearer colour of the ganja and that the putut figure is not symmetrical!
Regarding the fact that you could not easily photoshop my pictures, it might be due to the compression software (Light Image Resizer 4) which I am using for reducing the picture size.
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 27th February 2013, 12:55 PM

Jean, it would be unreasonable to expect that you would see this. Ric Furrer possibly would, and I can see it, but to understand a blade you need to know how to make a blade. That was the only reason I spent time learning how to make keris, so I would understand them.

But I you might be able to pick this sort of thing next time around. Yes?

The previous image files opened just fine and I could work on them in Photoshop, but when I transferred those files to My Pictures, they stayed locked. I had a close look at the properties on your images and there is a message there that says something about the files came from a different computer and might be protected. So I changed the name and did a few copies before I Photoshopped it, that seemed to get me around any problems.

A. G. Maisey · 27th February 2013, 08:59 PM

#2

Madura is fond of capu kagok as is Solo. This keris doesn't look Solo to me, I think maybe coastal East Jawa, wr. Madura.

#3

mamas SW , complex pamor in light blade, probably Jatim/ Maduro

Post 8, keris #2 and keris #3

not a lot I can say about either of these.

#2 is pretty featureless; in the pics it seems to have a "fallen brick" blumbangan, which looks like about the only indicator I can see; the stain is not wonderful, and this might be material or might be the warangan or might be the lack of skill in the person who did it; top of the gonjo might give a clue, feel of the weight distribution and texture of material might give a clue.
Thinking in terms of major strands of influence, yes, Solo and Madura are both known for this scabbard form, but realistically it could be just about anywhere away from strong direct kraton influence.
The hilt is not Solo work, but it uses a Solo style for a model, it also doesn't strike me as Madura work.

I think I'd opt for "Javanese" only for this one.

#3 presents as a typical Madura blade both stylistically and in respect of pamor; the blumbangan looks to be "brick standing", the luk at the point is fairly longish which is not particularly known as a Madura characteristic, but is accepted as an East Jawa characteristic. Maybe a Madura blade made for East Jawa mainland ?
The scabbard form --- mamas SW --- is strongly associated with East Jawa.

I think I'll stay with my hip shot on this one:- East Jawa/Madura

Jean · 28th February 2013, 08:59 AM

Thank you Alan and I deeply appreciate your expert analysis as usual.
I have other supposedly East Javanese krisses to show but will leave the floor to others.

BTW do you consider Tuban style blades as Jatim or Jateng?
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 28th February 2013, 11:46 AM

Actually Jean, I consider Tuban blades as Tuban:- Tuban is a legit tangguh. This "Jatim"/"jateng" thing is an artificial construct that we're using here because it suits the way the collecting community here thinks, it really has very little --- maybe nothing --- to do with the way Javanese people classify keris.

Jean · 1st March 2013, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Actually Jean, I consider Tuban blades as Tuban:- Tuban is a legit tangguh. This "Jatim"/"jateng" thing is an artificial construct that we're using here because it suits the way the collecting community here thinks, it really has very little --- maybe nothing --- to do with the way Javanese people classify keris.

Hello Alan,
Thanks, very clear and understood.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 1st March 2013, 10:23 PM

Post 9

#1

Jateng, Solo and maybe a Koripan wilahan --- can't be positive without physical insp.

post 10

#1

very tempted to give Jatim, wilah might be Pjjrn.:- pamor, boto adeg, but only stylistically and it might look different in the hand.

The keris in post 9 is overall a Solo keris, everything about it is Solo.
I’ve given the blade as possibly Koripan, which is a smithing village between Solo and Jogja. For a very long time the smiths in this village produced rough copies of M’ram SA keris, and very frequently these rough copies get sold as the real thing, ie, Mataram Sultan Agung.

Stylistically a Koripan keris has almost the same features as M’ram SA, but it is more crude and lacks refinement.

However, there are a number of other keris classifications that look very, very similar and it is not always possible to be absolutely certain what one of these generic Mataram blades should be classified as, so it is probably safer to dump them all in one basket and call them “late Mataram”.

I reckon “Surakarta/Late Mataram” is the safest classification for this keris.

Post #10
For the overall keris I’d be happy with just “Jawa”. The wrongko could be anywhere, it doesn’t look like Surakarta work, but it could be, just not under direct kraton influence. Could be East Jawa, could be anywhere in between.
But the blade is a pretty nice example of an older “everyman’s” keris.

The more I look at it the more Pajajaran seems likely, but if it truly is classifiable as Pjjrn., it is in remarkably good condition; it might be a Gresik copy of Pjjrn. You can usually pick Gresik by the pamor which has a greasy feel to it, it doesn’t grip your finger tips like most other pamor does, even though it might be quite worn.

The big fat-like exposure of pamor, the long gandhik, whispy kembang kacang, gonjo style, luk style:- to my eye everything about this blade looks Pjjrn., which of course places it as a West Jawa blade, and in the corresponding period, you could say north coast, so I guess a lot of people would give it as Cirebon these days.

Cirebon has become a popular classification in recent years, but in Solo 30 years ago I never heard it mentioned. At that time it seemed that the focus of all the truly knowledgeable people was on the classic descent of kingdoms classifications(tangguhs) along with the well known copies of these, so mostly if something didn’t quite fit into the guidelines based on Pangeran Wijil’s “Turun Temuruning Para Empu Tanah Jawi” a blade got classified as “diluar Jawa” (outside Jawa) and pretty much disregarded or devalued. Possibly not a logical approach, but we need to remember that everything about keris in Central Jawa is part of a culturally based belief system, if something is outside the culture, it doesn’t count.

A good tell for Pajajaran is the edge of the pamor where it meets the steel core. In a genuine Pjjrn. blade there will be a microscopic separation of steel core and pamor. I use a 3X loupe to see this, its not really possible to see it with the naked eye --- well, its not possible for me, for some others it might be.

I’d be happy with a generic “Jawa” classification for this keris; I’m very tempted to give the blade as Pajaran, but I could not do this unless I handled it.

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27th February 2013, 10:11 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you very much Alan for this detailed inspection and evaluation of my blade, it is truly amazing and I did not notice anything abnormal myself except the clearer colour of the ganja and that the putut figure is not symmetrical! Regarding the fact that you could not easily photoshop my pictures, it might be due to the compression software (Light Image Resizer 4) which I am using for reducing the picture size. Best regards

27th February 2013, 12:55 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Jean, it would be unreasonable to expect that you would see this. Ric Furrer possibly would, and I can see it, but to understand a blade you need to know how to make a blade. That was the only reason I spent time learning how to make keris, so I would understand them. But I you might be able to pick this sort of thing next time around. Yes? The previous image files opened just fine and I could work on them in Photoshop, but when I transferred those files to My Pictures, they stayed locked. I had a close look at the properties on your images and there is a message there that says something about the files came from a different computer and might be protected. So I changed the name and did a few copies before I Photoshopped it, that seemed to get me around any problems.

27th February 2013, 08:59 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	#2 Madura is fond of capu kagok as is Solo. This keris doesn't look Solo to me, I think maybe coastal East Jawa, wr. Madura. #3 mamas SW , complex pamor in light blade, probably Jatim/ Maduro Post 8, keris #2 and keris #3 not a lot I can say about either of these. #2 is pretty featureless; in the pics it seems to have a "fallen brick" blumbangan, which looks like about the only indicator I can see; the stain is not wonderful, and this might be material or might be the warangan or might be the lack of skill in the person who did it; top of the gonjo might give a clue, feel of the weight distribution and texture of material might give a clue. Thinking in terms of major strands of influence, yes, Solo and Madura are both known for this scabbard form, but realistically it could be just about anywhere away from strong direct kraton influence. The hilt is not Solo work, but it uses a Solo style for a model, it also doesn't strike me as Madura work. I think I'd opt for "Javanese" only for this one. #3 presents as a typical Madura blade both stylistically and in respect of pamor; the blumbangan looks to be "brick standing", the luk at the point is fairly longish which is not particularly known as a Madura characteristic, but is accepted as an East Jawa characteristic. Maybe a Madura blade made for East Jawa mainland ? The scabbard form --- mamas SW --- is strongly associated with East Jawa. I think I'll stay with my hip shot on this one:- East Jawa/Madura

28th February 2013, 08:59 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan and I deeply appreciate your expert analysis as usual. I have other supposedly East Javanese krisses to show but will leave the floor to others. BTW do you consider Tuban style blades as Jatim or Jateng? Best regards

28th February 2013, 11:46 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Actually Jean, I consider Tuban blades as Tuban:- Tuban is a legit tangguh. This "Jatim"/"jateng" thing is an artificial construct that we're using here because it suits the way the collecting community here thinks, it really has very little --- maybe nothing --- to do with the way Javanese people classify keris.

1st March 2013, 10:23 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Post 9 #1 Jateng, Solo and maybe a Koripan wilahan --- can't be positive without physical insp. post 10 #1 very tempted to give Jatim, wilah might be Pjjrn.:- pamor, boto adeg, but only stylistically and it might look different in the hand. The keris in post 9 is overall a Solo keris, everything about it is Solo. I’ve given the blade as possibly Koripan, which is a smithing village between Solo and Jogja. For a very long time the smiths in this village produced rough copies of M’ram SA keris, and very frequently these rough copies get sold as the real thing, ie, Mataram Sultan Agung. Stylistically a Koripan keris has almost the same features as M’ram SA, but it is more crude and lacks refinement. However, there are a number of other keris classifications that look very, very similar and it is not always possible to be absolutely certain what one of these generic Mataram blades should be classified as, so it is probably safer to dump them all in one basket and call them “late Mataram”. I reckon “Surakarta/Late Mataram” is the safest classification for this keris. Post #10 For the overall keris I’d be happy with just “Jawa”. The wrongko could be anywhere, it doesn’t look like Surakarta work, but it could be, just not under direct kraton influence. Could be East Jawa, could be anywhere in between. But the blade is a pretty nice example of an older “everyman’s” keris. The more I look at it the more Pajajaran seems likely, but if it truly is classifiable as Pjjrn., it is in remarkably good condition; it might be a Gresik copy of Pjjrn. You can usually pick Gresik by the pamor which has a greasy feel to it, it doesn’t grip your finger tips like most other pamor does, even though it might be quite worn. The big fat-like exposure of pamor, the long gandhik, whispy kembang kacang, gonjo style, luk style:- to my eye everything about this blade looks Pjjrn., which of course places it as a West Jawa blade, and in the corresponding period, you could say north coast, so I guess a lot of people would give it as Cirebon these days. Cirebon has become a popular classification in recent years, but in Solo 30 years ago I never heard it mentioned. At that time it seemed that the focus of all the truly knowledgeable people was on the classic descent of kingdoms classifications(tangguhs) along with the well known copies of these, so mostly if something didn’t quite fit into the guidelines based on Pangeran Wijil’s “Turun Temuruning Para Empu Tanah Jawi” a blade got classified as “diluar Jawa” (outside Jawa) and pretty much disregarded or devalued. Possibly not a logical approach, but we need to remember that everything about keris in Central Jawa is part of a culturally based belief system, if something is outside the culture, it doesn’t count. A good tell for Pajajaran is the edge of the pamor where it meets the steel core. In a genuine Pjjrn. blade there will be a microscopic separation of steel core and pamor. I use a 3X loupe to see this, its not really possible to see it with the naked eye --- well, its not possible for me, for some others it might be. I’d be happy with a generic “Jawa” classification for this keris; I’m very tempted to give the blade as Pajaran, but I could not do this unless I handled it.