The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Whilst I note that the above interesting discussion has for the present discounted the issue of flexibility, I have just one question for a straight "yes" or "no" answer please.
Do ALL the Straight bladed Omani Sayfs have a "90 degree" flex or not?
If not, then it would be reasonable to assume that those that DO NOT, were, or COULD have been, used for combat, and therefore could not accurately be called Dancing Swords. I have a Sayf in my collection which has only about 2" flex....pic below.

Salaams kahnjar1 ~ I once went to an interview in which the interviewer would only answer questions with two words... either "yes" or "no".

In "Ethnographics" I doubt the same technique can be applied.

The first point is that not all blades danced with in Oman are straight flexible ones... with nothing else to hand dancers use pretty well anything similar including rifles, camel sticks and any variety of sword avialable...I can show the mimic fighting taking place with a curved sword and a sandal for a shield. So it would be quite wrong to be so specific.

Your question (though by no means a closed or completed querry) asks; Do ALL the Straight bladed Omani Sayfs have a "90 degree" flex or not?

Technically I think so. All the ones I have seen and handled are flexible but... and the BUT is big ... There appear to be swords from probably the Red Sea region that are not flexible ... that look like Omani Dancing Swords but which are not flexible..and no-one knows why. Logically they could be rehilts of otherwise previous fighting blades (foreign) on Omani Hilts. We know for example that Muscat since the 70s has been active in the business of rehilting all manner of foreign blades onto Omani Long Hilts. We know that these blades were provided from Sanaa and several have Ethiopian blades originally German. The Red Sea link is therefor highly likely. Your blade may be related to the blade at Kattara for comments #1. The apparent blade cross section from what I can see... makes that blade and yours similar ... not a flat springy dancing blade but stiff..with a wing shaped cross section.

Naturally there is a very big difference in the application between wholly flexible and wholly stiff blades, though, try as I might, I still haven't unearthed the reason why these odd stiff variants turn up now and again mounted on Omani long hilts, however, since I'm in the Muscat Museums next week I will be giving that one a lot of time.

As to the yes or no answer technique I repeat that ethnographic detective work can never be so limited..The Forum would only be about two pages long based on that structure...yes or no ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams kahnjar1 ~ I once went to an interview in which the interviewer would only answer questions with two words... either "yes" or "no".

In "Ethnographics" I doubt the same technique can be applied.

The first point is that not all blades danced with in Oman are straight flexible ones... with nothing else to hand dancers use pretty well anything similar including rifles, camel sticks and any variety of sword avialable...I can show the mimic fighting taking place with a curved sword and a sandal for a shield. So it would be quite wrong to be so specific.

Your question (though by no means a closed or completed querry) asks; Do ALL the Straight bladed Omani Sayfs have a "90 degree" flex or not?

Technically I think so. All the ones I have seen and handled are flexible but... and the BUT is big ... There appear to be swords from probably the Red Sea region that are not flexible ... that look like Omani Dancing Swords but which are not flexible..and no-one knows why. Logically they could be rehilts of otherwise previous fighting blades (foreign) on Omani Hilts. We know for example that Muscat since the 70s has been active in the business of rehilting all manner of foreign blades onto Omani Long Hilts. We know that these blades were provided from Sanaa and several have Ethiopian blades originally German. The Red Sea link is therefor highly likely. Your blade may be related to the blade at Kattara for comments #1. The apparent blade cross section from what I can see... makes that blade and yours similar ... not a flat springy dancing blade but stiff..with a wing shaped cross section.

Naturally there is a very big difference in the application between wholly flexible and wholly stiff blades, though, try as I might, I still haven't unearthed the reason why these odd stiff variants turn up now and again mounted on Omani long hilts, however, since I'm in the Muscat Museums next week I will be giving that one a lot of time.

As to the yes or no answer technique I repeat that ethnographic detective work can never be so limited..The Forum would only be about two pages long based on that structure...yes or no ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.

OK Let me rephrase the question......Do ALL the straight bladed Omani swords which you have in your workshop, and describe as Omani, have "90 degree" flexible blades?
What I am trying to establish here, is that there was POSSIBLY a "combat" version of this sword in it's own right.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

QUOTE=kahnjar1]OK Let me rephrase the question......Do ALL the straight bladed Omani swords which you have in your workshop, and describe as Omani, have "90 degree" flexible blades?
What I am trying to establish here, is that there was POSSIBLY a "combat" version of this sword in it's own right.[/QUOTE]


Salaams kahnjar1 . Yes all the Omani Sayfs ... The straight Omani Dancing swords bend massively... at least through 90 degrees and return immediately to straight.

None of the dancing swords I have ever seen are stiff.

Now the question we are all chasing down is... What about these stiff blades like the one you have? They are made differently being wing shaped in cross section but are they fighting swords or dancing ?... Technically they must be weapons but were fitted to Omani hilts when, why...and where? They could be part of the ensemble of swords fitted up in Muscat in the last 40 years... after all they have cross hilted thousands of swords.

That is one of the questions I have for the museum people.

In the meantime we may simply have a very odd situation we can't solve yet but somewhere down the line this one should unravel ~ meanwhile it's ringfenced.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

QUOTE=kahnjar1]OK Let me rephrase the question......Do ALL the straight bladed Omani swords which you have in your workshop, and describe as Omani, have "90 degree" flexible blades?
What I am trying to establish here, is that there was POSSIBLY a "combat" version of this sword in it's own right.

Salaams kahnjar1 . Yes all the Omani Sayfs ... The straight Omani Dancing swords bend massively... at least through 90 degrees and return immediately to straight.

None of the dancing swords I have ever seen are stiff.

Now the question we are all chasing down is... What about these stiff blades like the one you have? They are made differently being wing shaped in cross section but are they fighting swords or dancing ?... Technically they must be weapons but were fitted to Omani hilts when, why...and where? They could be part of the ensemble of swords fitted up in Muscat in the last 40 years... after all they have cross hilted thousands of swords.

That is one of the questions I have for the museum people.

In the meantime we may simply have a very odd situation we can't solve yet but somewhere down the line this one should unravel ~ meanwhile it's ringfenced.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.[/QUOTE]
Salaams Ibrahiim,

My question is still not answered......The Omani Sayfs in your workshop....are they ALL "90 degree"flexible blades (dancing swords)?

You state that those with 2" or so flexible blades, or stiff blades are not of Omani origin, so I assume that the above is true as you describe all your straight Sayfs as Omani. Please confirm.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Salaams kahnjar1 . Yes all the Omani Sayfs ... The straight Omani Dancing swords bend massively... at least through 90 degrees and return immediately to straight.

None of the dancing swords I have ever seen are stiff.

Now the question we are all chasing down is... What about these stiff blades like the one you have? They are made differently being wing shaped in cross section but are they fighting swords or dancing ?... Technically they must be weapons but were fitted to Omani hilts when, why...and where? They could be part of the ensemble of swords fitted up in Muscat in the last 40 years... after all they have cross hilted thousands of swords.

That is one of the questions I have for the museum people.

In the meantime we may simply have a very odd situation we can't solve yet but somewhere down the line this one should unravel ~ meanwhile it's ringfenced.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

My question is still not answered......The Omani Sayfs in your workshop....are they ALL "90 degree"flexible blades (dancing swords)?

You state that those with 2" or so flexible blades, or stiff blades are not of Omani origin, so I assume that the above is true as you describe all your straight Sayfs as Omani. Please confirm.[/QUOTE]


Salaams, I refer you to the first line above in which I say... Yes all the Omani Sayfs ... The straight Omani Dancing swords bend massively... at least through 90 degrees and return immediately to straight. That applies to all of the Omani dancing swords in my collection... my workshop is not a sword "making" facility.

All the sword making workshops that I know of continue to turn out only flexible dancing swords in the format I describe.

It has always been my suspicion that the straight stiff variant "blade" is a Red Sea style previously a fighting blade perhaps Ottoman, Ethiopian Yemeni or even Algerian. For a comparison on an Omani hilt on a blade with a "similar" blade mark almost identical to an Algerian gun mark see Kattara for comments # 149 and #176.

My thoughts on Muscat rehilting are already placed.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Khanjar 1 ~ SO TO BE QUITE CLEAR ~

Yes all the Omani Sayfs ... The straight Omani Dancing swords bend massively... at least through 90 degrees and return immediately to straight. That applies to all of the Omani dancing swords in my collection... my workshop is not a sword "making" facility.

All the sword making workshops that I know of continue to turn out only flexible dancing swords in the format I describe.

It has always been my suspicion that the straight stiff variant "blade" is a Red Sea style previously a fighting blade perhaps Ottoman, Ethiopian Yemeni or even Algerian. For a comparison on an Omani hilt on a blade with a "similar" blade mark almost identical to an Algerian gun mark see Kattara for comments # 149 and #176.

My thoughts on Muscat rehilting are already placed.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all Update in Muscat.

I have tracked a number of points on the straight flexible dancing sword... The Omani Sayf. This is for confirmation (though it is already agreed by the Museums via another collector and close colleague whom I interviewed in Muscat yesterday) that precisely as I have explained previously the sword is purely for dancing and since its inception at the beginning of the current Albusaid Dynasty which I assume is 1744 though 1799 is also claimed...its role has been in the pageants as described and never... absolutely never as a weapon of war. The key proof is that this weapon was invented to march past and honour the Dynastic Albusaid monarch and not some previous family ruler...Obvious really ! The blade is supposed to be Omani, however, where other occasional foreign neighboring or distant blades appear it makes absolutely no difference to the core theme... Dancing Sword only. I am in the Museums on Tuesday next to collect the proof.
This is therefor simply an update..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes;
List of rulers that have been paraded past by tribesmen using the Straight Omani Sayf;

Al Bu Said Dynasty (1749–Present)
Abu Hilal Ahmad bin Said
10 June 1744
15 December 1783

Said bin Ahmad
15 December 1783
1784
Last direct male descendant of Al Bu Said to hold the office of Imam. He abdicated secular power to his son and retired to Rustaq where he died in 1803.

Hamad bin Said
1784
13 March 1792

Sultan bin Ahmad
13 March 1792
20 November 1804

Salim I bin Sultan and Said II bin Sultan
20 November 1804
14 September 1806
Co-Rulers

Said II bin Sultan
14 September 1806
19 October 1856 Sole Ruler

Thuwaini bin Said
19 October 1856
11 February 1866
Killed

Salim II bin Thuwaini
11 February 1866
3 October 1868
Killed

Azzan bin Qais
3 October 1868
30 January 1871
Killed

Turki bin Said
30 January 1871
4 June 1888

Faisal bin Turki
4 June 1888
9 October 1913
British protectorate imposed on 20 March 1891[28][29]

Taimur bin Feisal
9 October 1913
10 February 1932
Abdicated

Said III bin Taimur
10 February 1932
23 July 1970
Deposed

Qaboos bin Said

23 July 1970
Present
British protectorate ended on 2 December 1971