Pamor thread?

[Richard Furrer]

Not exactly what I had in mind Sirek.
I am not personally seeking a discussion of pamor per se, but a gallery of patterns.
As a blackssmith I wish to reverse engineer the techniques used in creating the patterns and as such I collect photos (and keris) which I find interesting.

Ric

[Bjorn]

It would certainly be a feast for the eyes, and a nice way to look up pamor patterns one is unfamiliar with. It might be a bit difficult to set it up in a forum environment though, owing to the huge number of patterns in existence.

[A. G. Maisey]

Richard there are a lot of variations to pamor patterns, but there is a quite limited number of basic patterns, possibly only about 5 or so.

There are a lot of clear pictures of pamor patterns in Haryoguritno, but you will find that just about everything that we can see in pamor patterns is reflected in damascus patterns, and when you compare the two you'll probably find that you've already seen the pattern, or at least a pattern that has been produced in a similar way, in either Figiel or Sasche.

What we sometimes think of as a variation is in fact failure to achieve a desired effect.

[Richard Furrer]

Alan,
I have noticed that some names are used for two patterns which are quite different in technique, but "similar" in final appearance. I place similar in quotes as, to me at least, they are not.

You may indeed be correct, but in searching just this list I have discovered much. Makes me wonder what I am missing.

Perhaps if I post images of my reconstructions it would spur some interest.

Ric

[David]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

I have noticed that some names are used for two patterns which are quite different in technique, but "similar" in final appearance. I place similar in quotes as, to me at least, they are not.

Ric, i don't think that you will want to get caught in the "name game" here and it will only distract you from what it seems you goals are. As Alan has already pointed out, there are a lot of good examples of pamor pattern in many available books. You will likely not only find the same name used for "similar" patterns that seem to have an obviously different approach, but completely different names for the same "exact" patterns, dependent upon many variables including, but not exclusive to the area the blade originates from, when the blade was made and what reference materials the person applying the name has read for their source info.
I am not sure what good it would serve to amass a colection of various pamors here except to create endless debate on what these various pamors should be called. You can certainly find a fairly large selection of clear photographs of different patterns either in some of these reference books or with a google search of images under the key word "keris pamor patterns".

[Richard Furrer]

Indeed Gentleman,
Pictures abound. I have most of the books...some 20 or so on Keris and many hundreds of sword/knife books in general.
Yet,
Some of the photos posted here are new patterns..maybe not in appearance to many of you, but to a smith they indeed are not documented in any book I have.

As to names:
I generally do not care until it comes time to do a search for a specific pattern type and then a name is useful.

Ric

[A. G. Maisey]

Richard, you've noted in this most recent post that some of the pamor patterns "posted here" --- which I take as posted to this Forum --- are new patterns that do not appear in the books you have.

Yes, you're right.

We see a fair few pamor patterns posted mostly by people looking for a name, or to confirm a name. I can think of two that have surfaced in the last couple of weeks:- kembang pete (this is pronounced in a similar way to "pehteh", not as the abbreviation of "Peter") and klabang sejuta.

The kp is a variation of bendo sagodo, or brongsong, or santa, and 40 years ago all of them would probably have been dumped into the same basket and the variations from bendo sagodo would have been regarded as attempts that didn't quite make it. Or, alternatively the kp might have been regarded as banyu tetes on steroids.

The ks is interesting. I first saw this pamor in probably about 1988. It was the first time I'd seen it, the first time the dealer I bought from had seen it, and the first time Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo had seen it. It was a new creation out of Sumenep. For a number of years it was called "tirto tejo". Now it looks like the power of public opinion, or maybe marketing has decided that its klabang sejuta.

Now, this name is interesting, and it tells us that we are in fact looking at a new pamor that has been very probably given its name by the people in Jakarta, rather than people in the Javanese heartland. If this was an old Javanese pamor and they wanted to call it "thousand centipede" it would be "klabang sewu".

Sewu = one thousand in Javanese, sejuta = post 1972 spelling for one thousand in Indonesian, seyuta = pre-1972 spelling for one thousand in Indonesian. The transposition of "o" for "a" in some words is a Javanese characteristic of colloquial speech, so if "sewu sejuta" were to be spoken by a Javanese person in relaxed conversation, it would very probably be pronounced "sewuseyuto". The inclusion of an "e" after the "k" (kelabang) is the written expression of the pronunciation, which could probably be better represented by an apostrophe rather than an 'e', but it is not the usually accepted formal spelling.

But why didn't the originators of this name use Indonesian for "centipede"? "klabang " is Javanese

Well, if they had the name would be "lipan berbisa sejuta".

Sorta doesn't flow real well, does it?

And klabang has probably come over into Indonesian fairly widely, its certainly understood, anyway, and sounds better than "lipan berbisa"

All of the original keris terminology is Javanese.

Why?

Because the keris is first and foremost a Javanese cultural artifact.

Bahasa Indonesia, or Indonesian, is based upon Malay as it is spoken in a part of South Sumatera. Indonesian is the national language of the country, Indonesia, it is not the language of the Javanese people.

So when we see keris terminology rendered in Indonesian it is a dead give away that what we're looking at is a newly manufactured name, and probably a newly manufactured artifact as well.

Before somebody jumps onto the bandwagon and points out that everywhere the keris appears there are names that vary from the Javanese let us consider the spread of the keris.

This spread of the keris probably began with Majapahit trade links, but at that time in history the keris within Majapahit had a very specific social function, a function that would have precluded many forms of keris from being legitimately worn by people who were outside the Majapahit social structure. Some would very probably have been given to local rulers in parts of SE Asia that were under Majapahit influence, but there would have been no keris presence in the general populace in these places outside Majapahit.

With Islam a couple of things happened:- Javanese metal working skills went through a quantum leap (Pigeaud), and trade expanded. This was when the keris dispersion really took off, and by the late 17th century keris had actually become trade goods. The original purpose of the keris in Jawa had disappeared with the disappearance of Majapahit.

Thus, when the keris found its way into other parts of SE Asia it was adopted as a local artifact and given its own name and terminology by the local people in these other places.

In fact, keris terminology is full of euphemisms. Nowhere does a keris term tell you what the thing it refers to truly is.

So, fast forward to the keris revival of the 1970's and the second coming of the keris industry in Sumenep --- second coming, because these people have been making keris for the rest of Jawa since Majapahit times. We have a number of very talented pattern welders who are now taking traditional pamor motifs and extending the possibilities of those traditional motifs. It's understandable that we are seeing some seemingly different pamor motifs, but when we closely examine those motifs we can always relate them to a traditional motif, or to a combination of traditional motifs.

As David has noted, the name game is a pointless exercise. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no firm foundation to keris terminology. One can devote years to learning all the little quirks of keris terminology that apply in one particular location, then move 40 kilometers down the road and find that perhaps half of his hard won knowledge is not really of much use in his new location. One thing we should never get too upset about is the fact that not everybody will always agree as to name of some pamor, dhapur or whatever.

I don't necessarily agree with David about the usefulness of a pamor reference thread. If we look at past posts we do find a very large number of queries on pamor. If all these past queries had been able to be directed into a single thread it might make it a lot easier for the classifiers amongst us to apply names.

[DaveA]

Hello All,

I just stumbled on this thread. I have been collecting pictures of pamor for a couple of years. Some examples in my own collection, many elsewhere. On my website I am showing these pictures organized to the best of my knowledge based on information from the original sources. Richard, perhaps you and others will find this useful.

You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...mor/index.html

I certainly welcome all comments and corrections. If you would like to contribute a photo I will be pleased to add it to the gallery so everyone can find it.

Best Regards,

Dave A.

[A. G. Maisey]

A nice initiative Dave.

I'd like to make a couple of comments if I may.

Firstly, the contrast in pamor is not necessarily created by combining iron and nickel bearing material. Very often pamor contrast is created by combining irons of different colours, for instance if a high phosphorus iron is combined with a low phosphorus iron the iron with high phosphorus content appears quite pale, something that is referred to as "white iron".

The names that you have given to the various pamors you show could be argued over by students of the keris until the cows come home. I suggest that where you have given a name to a pamor that you name the source of the name, that way people can argue with the original person who gave the pamor that name, rather than with you, or amongst themselves.

Again, my compliments for something that I consider to be a very valuable piece of work.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Hello All,


You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...mor/index.html

I certainly welcome all comments and corrections.
Best Regards,

Dave A.

Hello Dave,
Congratulations for your valuable work and thanks for sharing it with us!
As Alan said, I would argue about the names given to some pamor patterns but as it is only my personal opinion and not backed by an expert, I will keep it for myself!
Best regards

[David]

I agree with both Alan and Jean here. Nice start for an ambitious project. I also agree with them on the name game and frankly i have never heard of many of the pamor names you put forth here (though pamor ID is certainly not my strong point). Not saying they are necessarily incorrect, but i am sure you will get some argument in certain quarters. I also noticed that in at least one case you had a photo labelled Kul Buntet (in "Other Pamors") that mostly shows the upper part of the blade and just a bit of a pattern that may or may not be Kul Buntet at the bottom of the photo. This might give a misinterpretation to the viewer who might assume that the pamor above the circular pattern is also part of Kul Buntet. I would say that for this project to be more effective you will need to up the quality of the images quite a bit as a large number of them are out of focus, poorly lit or poorly cropped (or all of the above) rendering their actual usage questionable for any kind of positive identification. I look forward to watching this project grow so please keep us updated.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Hello All,

I just stumbled on this thread. I have been collecting pictures of pamor for a couple of years. Some examples in my own collection, many elsewhere. On my website I am showing these pictures organized to the best of my knowledge based on information from the original sources. Richard, perhaps you and others will find this useful.

You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...mor/index.html

I certainly welcome all comments and corrections. If you would like to contribute a photo I will be pleased to add it to the gallery so everyone can find it.

Best Regards,

Dave A.

While I was researching the pamor of my krises I came across this thread and in particular this post with a reference to the David J. Atkinson site. I think it is an extremely valuable reference point and while my knowledge in general and in particular of the pamors remains very much the beginner's, I too realize how difficult it is to systemize any kind of gallery within the scope of the “ taxonomy “ of the kris.

Yet, It would be very nice to have a pamor resource here too but then I can already see that each entry would be create a discussion on its own since few pamors appear to be a clear cut case and given that there are no universally recognized sources that would be to everyone’s liking and satisfaction, there will always be the matter of how to call what in which way.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Milandro, you're dead right, names of pamors --- and other things --- do vary from place to place & time to time.

But there is another factor too, one that is frequently overlooked, or maybe not even recognised outside the central core of keris people in Solo, possibly in other places also, but what I know for certain is Solo.

The importance of a pamor pattern in a keris is not nearly as important as the quality of craftsmanship, ie, "garap", in the appraisal and understanding of a keris.

Whereas for probably the majority of keris collectors outside the heartlands of Jawa, the pamor motif is the first thing they see and perhaps the most important thing they consider, for that hard core of keris connoisseurs, there are other things that come first in the appraisal of a keris.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

Not exactly what I had in mind Sirek.
I am not personally seeking a discussion of pamor per se, but a gallery of patterns.
As a blackssmith I wish to reverse engineer the techniques used in creating the patterns and as such I collect photos (and keris) which I find interesting.

Ric

Interesting. Try this