help identifying writing system

fernando · 27th September 2005, 08:13 PM

I humbly thank you Ham, for the finest clarification of the term "Arabic".
Your paragraph on the influence of dominant alphabets and languages, like Latin, reminds me that only after 1960 the Catholic Mass stopped being dealt in actual Latin, with everybody reading out loud the Latin prayers and Bible parts, without comprehending what the words meant, except for the Priest. One other interesting angle is that, High degree diplomas are still nowadays being issued in real parchment and written in Latin ... at least over here.
I started yesterday searching the Net on the pistol model, following the Ottoman track, and saw partly similar examples, quoted as of an Ottoman ( Turkish ) pattern.
I also queried a Persian Forum, to check on the Farsi possibility. The following were the answers:

Sorry, but that doesn't look like Persian. Even if it is, it is certainly not legible..

Looks like Arabic to me. The rightmost word seems to be the Arabic word: SAN'A meaning manufactured or built. The second word must be a name..

I wonder if the second answer is a promising aproach.

ham · 27th September 2005, 09:25 PM

Hm. Looking at the image right way 'round, one can (very weakly) argue that at the far left, there are some squiggles which if pressed, could be read as a date, 1220, or about 1806 in the Muslim calendar-- however these are interspersed with another character which could be taken as a 5, though I think that is just a diacritical mark, perhaps a "sukuun." Gads, what a mess. This fellow's Arabic instructor would have rapped his knuckles bloody if he ever saw it.
The primary concern here however is that this piece does not likely date so early. Possibly the barrel and lock do, suggesting they were restocked in the latter 19th century. A feasible, if circuitous, path to the present.

Sincerely,

Ham

fernando · 28th September 2005, 07:58 PM

Thank you so much.
Could i infer that there is ( at least ) a third word in the midle of the inscription, like the whole text meanning: Made by "Abdulah" ( in the year ) 1220 ? This would already be encouraging!
Isn't Islamic year 1220 equivalent to Christian 1842 ?
This would reduce the span between the aparent oldness of the barrel and lock, and the newness of the stock. I stress this point, as the decoration on the barrel is not continuous, but divided in sections, with border lines perfectly aligned with the barrel bands angular format and position. This is only achieved with an intrinsecal first mounting ... very unlikely the restocking smith would achieve or care for such a precision, making invisible any marks of bands readjustment, or their matching with the engraving borders.
This to say that, to my non expert view, if the stock is newer than the rest, on wich i actually agree, we can not exclude that this was the first one that was fitted on the pistol, which is not so unusual in this type of weapons, often made with parts of various origins and generations.
Also peculiar to me is the counter lockplate, wich is made in thin brass sheet ( not shown in the pictures ), in the same material, with the same patina with precisely the same puncture decoration as the barrel bands ... so not a later repair.
On the other hand , the bass trigger guard seems to be from a different family, with a floral deep engraving.
Sorry to be so long, and probably so wrong.

TVV · 28th September 2005, 08:42 PM

Wow, this pistol is indeed most interesting. The brass plating is most deffinitely Balkan, as brass fastening plates were widely used on firarms, produced there. The lock is not the typical muquelet lock one expects to find on early specimens form the Balkans, however, but one needs to keep in mind that local craftsmen began producing French type locks, as the French lock mechanism was superior to the miquelet one. So far everything is somewhat consistent, but the trigger guard, the crest and the butt cap are Western. It could have been a Western pistol, which was exported to the Balkan provinces of the Ottoman empire, where it was redecorated according to its owner's preferences, However, I personally think that it is most likely a Frankenstein of sorts: the stock was taken from one pistol, the lock from aanother and the brass plates were added in the final assembly. This could have been done long time ago, and it would not be a surprise, as it was a common practice for gunsmiths in the Balkans to reuse every possible part, but it also could have been done quite recently by a collector, which for your benefit I hope is not the case. One just needs to consider all options. With flintlock pistols being quite expensive, many collectors are compelled to buy different parts and put them together. Just my two cents.
Best regards,
Teodor

fernando · 28th September 2005, 09:05 PM

I wonder if the silver inlay could be executed after the pistol was already mounted. Then it would be rational to assume that the pistol was mounted in the late XIX century, as you estimated, with a period stock and an older lock and barrel set ... but not necessarily old as dated in the inscription. As you previously introduced, the local illiterate craftsman might have copied the whole text from an older finer example.
If any further coments on the text translation, just please tell.
Kind regards
And apologies to the Forum Staff, if i went too far with this type of topic.

bj211 · 27th March 2006, 09:35 PM

Hi Ham…
What do you think? Can you confirm any of this ?
any corrections? i'm sure Tunisia was not ment to be there!!
maybe a similar sounding Ottman region that you know of?!

ham · 28th March 2006, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bj211

Hi Ham…
What do you think? Can you confirm any of this ?
any corrections? i'm sure Tunisia was not ment to be there!!
maybe a similar sounding Ottman region that you know of?!

Salaam alaikum ya BJ,

Ahlan w'sahlan fil Sword Forum. Anta 'al ustadh al lughat al'arbiyya, ana talib faqat. Min 'aina anta ya akhi?
We are indeed fortunate to have such a colleague, welcome.
The 20th century date and poor calligraphy are consistent, not as an indication of manufacture, simply of the period of embellishment-- likely in the Tunis arms bazaar.

Ham

bj211 · 28th March 2006, 06:16 AM

Wa Alaikum Al Salam ya Ham

Thank you very much for the kind and worm welcome. And for a student, your Arabic language knowledge is superb.

I’m from a small country in the Arab world, Kuwait. My passion for Arab & Islamic art comes from the fact that I belong to the “ society of the Dar Athar Alislamia “

Min 'aina anta ya sadeeqi?

27th March 2006, 09:35 PM	#6
bj211 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	any body! Hi Ham… What do you think? Can you confirm any of this ? any corrections? i'm sure Tunisia was not ment to be there!! maybe a similar sounding Ottman region that you know of?! Attached Images

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27th September 2005, 08:13 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I humbly thank you Ham, for the finest clarification of the term "Arabic". Your paragraph on the influence of dominant alphabets and languages, like Latin, reminds me that only after 1960 the Catholic Mass stopped being dealt in actual Latin, with everybody reading out loud the Latin prayers and Bible parts, without comprehending what the words meant, except for the Priest. One other interesting angle is that, High degree diplomas are still nowadays being issued in real parchment and written in Latin ... at least over here. I started yesterday searching the Net on the pistol model, following the Ottoman track, and saw partly similar examples, quoted as of an Ottoman ( Turkish ) pattern. I also queried a Persian Forum, to check on the Farsi possibility. The following were the answers: Sorry, but that doesn't look like Persian. Even if it is, it is certainly not legible.. Looks like Arabic to me. The rightmost word seems to be the Arabic word: SAN'A meaning manufactured or built. The second word must be a name.. I wonder if the second answer is a promising aproach.

27th September 2005, 09:25 PM	#2
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Hm. Looking at the image right way 'round, one can (very weakly) argue that at the far left, there are some squiggles which if pressed, could be read as a date, 1220, or about 1806 in the Muslim calendar-- however these are interspersed with another character which could be taken as a 5, though I think that is just a diacritical mark, perhaps a "sukuun." Gads, what a mess. This fellow's Arabic instructor would have rapped his knuckles bloody if he ever saw it. The primary concern here however is that this piece does not likely date so early. Possibly the barrel and lock do, suggesting they were restocked in the latter 19th century. A feasible, if circuitous, path to the present. Sincerely, Ham

28th September 2005, 07:58 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much. Could i infer that there is ( at least ) a third word in the midle of the inscription, like the whole text meanning: Made by "Abdulah" ( in the year ) 1220 ? This would already be encouraging! Isn't Islamic year 1220 equivalent to Christian 1842 ? This would reduce the span between the aparent oldness of the barrel and lock, and the newness of the stock. I stress this point, as the decoration on the barrel is not continuous, but divided in sections, with border lines perfectly aligned with the barrel bands angular format and position. This is only achieved with an intrinsecal first mounting ... very unlikely the restocking smith would achieve or care for such a precision, making invisible any marks of bands readjustment, or their matching with the engraving borders. This to say that, to my non expert view, if the stock is newer than the rest, on wich i actually agree, we can not exclude that this was the first one that was fitted on the pistol, which is not so unusual in this type of weapons, often made with parts of various origins and generations. Also peculiar to me is the counter lockplate, wich is made in thin brass sheet ( not shown in the pictures ), in the same material, with the same patina with precisely the same puncture decoration as the barrel bands ... so not a later repair. On the other hand , the bass trigger guard seems to be from a different family, with a floral deep engraving. Sorry to be so long, and probably so wrong.

28th September 2005, 08:42 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Wow, this pistol is indeed most interesting. The brass plating is most deffinitely Balkan, as brass fastening plates were widely used on firarms, produced there. The lock is not the typical muquelet lock one expects to find on early specimens form the Balkans, however, but one needs to keep in mind that local craftsmen began producing French type locks, as the French lock mechanism was superior to the miquelet one. So far everything is somewhat consistent, but the trigger guard, the crest and the butt cap are Western. It could have been a Western pistol, which was exported to the Balkan provinces of the Ottoman empire, where it was redecorated according to its owner's preferences, However, I personally think that it is most likely a Frankenstein of sorts: the stock was taken from one pistol, the lock from aanother and the brass plates were added in the final assembly. This could have been done long time ago, and it would not be a surprise, as it was a common practice for gunsmiths in the Balkans to reuse every possible part, but it also could have been done quite recently by a collector, which for your benefit I hope is not the case. One just needs to consider all options. With flintlock pistols being quite expensive, many collectors are compelled to buy different parts and put them together. Just my two cents. Best regards, Teodor

28th September 2005, 09:05 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I wonder if the silver inlay could be executed after the pistol was already mounted. Then it would be rational to assume that the pistol was mounted in the late XIX century, as you estimated, with a period stock and an older lock and barrel set ... but not necessarily old as dated in the inscription. As you previously introduced, the local illiterate craftsman might have copied the whole text from an older finer example. If any further coments on the text translation, just please tell. Kind regards And apologies to the Forum Staff, if i went too far with this type of topic.

28th March 2006, 06:16 AM	#8
bj211 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	Wa Alaikum Al Salam ya Ham Thank you very much for the kind and worm welcome. And for a student, your Arabic language knowledge is superb. I’m from a small country in the Arab world, Kuwait. My passion for Arab & Islamic art comes from the fact that I belong to the “ society of the Dar Athar Alislamia “ Min 'aina anta ya sadeeqi?