Keris - javanese blade in Kedah mounts?

A. G. Maisey · 25th December 2012, 07:47 AM

Thank you gentlemen. What you have jointly provided is exactly the sort of information I was seeking.

I cannot open the CITES link, but will accept that it endorses what you are all telling me.

In any case, my initial post has had the effect I had hoped for, and I thank you all for your participation in this interesting discussion.

Happy Christmas!!!

T. Koch · 31st December 2012, 08:44 PM

Guys, before saying this, I would like to state that in the company of most of you gentlemen, I know next to nothing about keris. I'm an intellectual dwarf on the matter. My knowledge is so small that it gathers at the feet of your knowledge, together with other small knowledges, just to bow down in the dust and WORSHIP! I realize that a lot of you have been collecting for half a lifetime – more in some instances – and that you possess a quality of knowledge that only comes with submersion in a topic for years on end. I have nothing but the utmost respect for all of you!

When it comes to ivory, it is likewise important to me to state that my knowledge on the subject doesn't come from arms collecting, but as a consequence of my job. As I have said before, I put bread on our table as a CITES Management Authority for our Nature Agency under The Danish Environmental Ministry and am now going on my 6th year. In other words: It's part of my daily work to look at random peoples' old stuff, make a source species ID and tell the owners if they need to apply for a CITES-permit/certificate before selling the item in question. I also work borders with our customs agency, ID'ing items coming in through the mail as well as carried by travellers in the airport.

By this time, I would estimate the amount of items from CITES-contained species that have passed through my hands, to number in the low thousands -conservatively set. When giving my opinion on a source species, the requirements of my position and the possible legal gravity that my judgement potentially carries, has cultivated in me a strong sense of carefulness: I might need, to later stand up in court and reiterate my opinion on the source of a given material in front of a judge. For that reason, I will ever only state that a material is from a certain species, if I with every fibre of my being consider it so. Any doubt at all, and I let it go.

A perspective which becomes apparent with sufficient time spent in this field, is that the guidelines for identification of ivories are exactly that: Guidelines! The more pieces you see, the more you become aware of the existence of anomalies and how completely far and strangely removed from the norm these often are. When you not only look at weapon hilts, but everything, from raw tusks and teeth, in longitudinal- and transsection, to tiny little jewelry and scrap ivory, it becomes very clear: A strong ID is not as easy as ticking of a certain box and then you have your species. This was the point of my first post:

To encourage other collectors to likewise be cautious and base their assessments on careful consideration of the whole piece presented, rather than quickly looking for a single character fit.

Regarding the piece at hand, my opinion is still, from the photographic material here presented, that the source might as well be some other kind of ivory than hippo. If I failed to make it clear in my first post, please let me explain here, that I mentioned walrus not because I found it a likely source in this case. I mentioned having seen similar “dots in a row” in walrus ivory (likewise with elephant) – none of which have an interstitial zone as part of their physiological structure. I mentioned this, merely to support my point that basing a species ID on a single character in a given piece of ivory, is a fallacy.

My thoughts on topic of hippo ivory in the context at hand, are much in alignment with Allan Maisley's. Like Allan, I would also very much like to see written proof that hippo ivory was carved and used in this way in South East Asia. Please note, that I don't say that I do not believe it, simply that I would like to see the source. In the face of new evidence, I am always up for changing my opinion!

Secondly, and for me more importantly, I would like a source to “dots in a row” being a sure-shot character for the ID of hippo ivory. Willem, my Borneo-guru, you belong right up there in the group of gentlemen that I first mentioned, but I humbly believe you to be wrong on this matter. I know Espinosa & Mann, very – very - well, but nowhere do I remember them making a reference to these “dots in a row”.

I would like to check it out now myself, but hey, it's New Years and I have an impatient girlfriend, actually waiting around for me this time.. Therefore, in the words of some Roman: Nunc est bibendum!

Happy New Years guys, - Thor

Jean · 1st January 2013, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

When it comes to ivory, it is likewise important to me to state that my knowledge on the subject doesn't come from arms collecting, but as a consequence of my job. As I have said before, I put bread on our table as a CITES Management Authority for our Nature Agency under The Danish Environmental Ministry and am now going on my 6th year. In other words: It's part of my daily work to look at random peoples' old stuff, make a source species ID and tell the owners if they need to apply for a CITES-permit/certificate before selling the item in question. I also work borders with our customs agency, ID'ing items coming in through the mail as well as carried by travellers in the airport.
My thoughts on topic of hippo ivory in the context at hand, are much in alignment with Allan Maisley's. Like Allan, I would also very much like to see written proof that hippo ivory was carved and used in this way in South East Asia. Please note, that I don't say that I do not believe it, simply that I would like to see the source. In the face of new evidence, I am always up for changing my opinion!
Secondly, and for me more importantly, I would like a source to “dots in a row” being a sure-shot character for the ID of hippo ivory.

Hello Thor,
We are very lucky to have an ivory expert among us!

Personally I am convinced by your arguments since you are the specialist and admit that I have been too quick to accept the presence of the dotted line along with other qualitative or visual indicators (feeling of higher density & hardness, colour, structure) as a proven indicator that a piece is made from hippo ivory. I agree that this evidence was not sufficiently documented.
If my question is not too difficult, could you please tell us how do you positively identify carved hippo ivory pieces subject to your inspection?
And a more detailed one: did you ever notice a dotted line in some pieces identified as spermwhale ivory?
If I have the opportunity to meet you I will be glad to show you my pieces in question provided that your Customs Authorities do not seize them

Thank you and happy New Year!
Jean

Sajen · 2nd January 2013, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

I mentioned having seen similar “dots in a row” in walrus ivory (likewise with elephant) – none of which have an interstitial zone as part of their physiological structure.

Hello Thor,

please can you provide pictures of clearly determined walrus and elephant ivory with this "dots in a row"?

Sajen · 2nd January 2013, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Secondly, and for me more importantly, I would like a source to “dots in a row” being a sure-shot character for the ID of hippo ivory.

Hello Thor,

the provided links I and Willem have posted don't tell something about "dots in a row" but confirm this with other words. very clear in this link: http://www.internationalivorysociety...y-bob-weisblut like follow: "There is a nerve root that looks like a "dash" or curved line properly referred to as a "TIZ". "

And sometimes a picture can tell much more as written words. The picture is taken from here: http://www.beyars.com/de_elfenbein-f...pferdzahn.html Unfortunately all written in german language.

Sajen · 2nd January 2013, 02:53 PM

And here for comparison the handle from one of my badik handles. Sorry for be a pain in this matter but I am very very positive about to assign hippo ivory by this "dots in a row".

Best regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2013, 05:10 AM

Thor, I thank you most sincerely for your further post.

It seems that your professional background is not all that dissimilar from my own, not that I work in border control ivory identification nor for a CITES agency, but rather that when I give a professional opinion I must be able to substantiate that opinion beyond the point of dispute.

I have not yet been able to open the CITES link that was provided, but it would seem from what you say that the material in this link is of the nature of guidelines, rather definitive statements.

I much appreciate both your input to this thread, and the professionalism of that input. Thank you very much. I do hope you stay involved in our shared interest.

2nd January 2013, 02:53 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,242	And here for comparison the handle from one of my badik handles. Sorry for be a pain in this matter but I am very very positive about to assign hippo ivory by this "dots in a row". Best regards, Detlef Attached Images

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25th December 2012, 07:47 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,029	Thank you gentlemen. What you have jointly provided is exactly the sort of information I was seeking. I cannot open the CITES link, but will accept that it endorses what you are all telling me. In any case, my initial post has had the effect I had hoped for, and I thank you all for your participation in this interesting discussion. Happy Christmas!!!

31st December 2012, 08:44 PM	#2
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Guys, before saying this, I would like to state that in the company of most of you gentlemen, I know next to nothing about keris. I'm an intellectual dwarf on the matter. My knowledge is so small that it gathers at the feet of your knowledge, together with other small knowledges, just to bow down in the dust and WORSHIP! I realize that a lot of you have been collecting for half a lifetime – more in some instances – and that you possess a quality of knowledge that only comes with submersion in a topic for years on end. I have nothing but the utmost respect for all of you! When it comes to ivory, it is likewise important to me to state that my knowledge on the subject doesn't come from arms collecting, but as a consequence of my job. As I have said before, I put bread on our table as a CITES Management Authority for our Nature Agency under The Danish Environmental Ministry and am now going on my 6th year. In other words: It's part of my daily work to look at random peoples' old stuff, make a source species ID and tell the owners if they need to apply for a CITES-permit/certificate before selling the item in question. I also work borders with our customs agency, ID'ing items coming in through the mail as well as carried by travellers in the airport. By this time, I would estimate the amount of items from CITES-contained species that have passed through my hands, to number in the low thousands -conservatively set. When giving my opinion on a source species, the requirements of my position and the possible legal gravity that my judgement potentially carries, has cultivated in me a strong sense of carefulness: I might need, to later stand up in court and reiterate my opinion on the source of a given material in front of a judge. For that reason, I will ever only state that a material is from a certain species, if I with every fibre of my being consider it so. Any doubt at all, and I let it go. A perspective which becomes apparent with sufficient time spent in this field, is that the guidelines for identification of ivories are exactly that: Guidelines! The more pieces you see, the more you become aware of the existence of anomalies and how completely far and strangely removed from the norm these often are. When you not only look at weapon hilts, but everything, from raw tusks and teeth, in longitudinal- and transsection, to tiny little jewelry and scrap ivory, it becomes very clear: A strong ID is not as easy as ticking of a certain box and then you have your species. This was the point of my first post: To encourage other collectors to likewise be cautious and base their assessments on careful consideration of the whole piece presented, rather than quickly looking for a single character fit. Regarding the piece at hand, my opinion is still, from the photographic material here presented, that the source might as well be some other kind of ivory than hippo. If I failed to make it clear in my first post, please let me explain here, that I mentioned walrus not because I found it a likely source in this case. I mentioned having seen similar “dots in a row” in walrus ivory (likewise with elephant) – none of which have an interstitial zone as part of their physiological structure. I mentioned this, merely to support my point that basing a species ID on a single character in a given piece of ivory, is a fallacy. My thoughts on topic of hippo ivory in the context at hand, are much in alignment with Allan Maisley's. Like Allan, I would also very much like to see written proof that hippo ivory was carved and used in this way in South East Asia. Please note, that I don't say that I do not believe it, simply that I would like to see the source. In the face of new evidence, I am always up for changing my opinion! Secondly, and for me more importantly, I would like a source to “dots in a row” being a sure-shot character for the ID of hippo ivory. Willem, my Borneo-guru, you belong right up there in the group of gentlemen that I first mentioned, but I humbly believe you to be wrong on this matter. I know Espinosa & Mann, very – very - well, but nowhere do I remember them making a reference to these “dots in a row”. I would like to check it out now myself, but hey, it's New Years and I have an impatient girlfriend, actually waiting around for me this time.. Therefore, in the words of some Roman: Nunc est bibendum! Happy New Years guys, - Thor

3rd January 2013, 05:10 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,029	Thor, I thank you most sincerely for your further post. It seems that your professional background is not all that dissimilar from my own, not that I work in border control ivory identification nor for a CITES agency, but rather that when I give a professional opinion I must be able to substantiate that opinion beyond the point of dispute. I have not yet been able to open the CITES link that was provided, but it would seem from what you say that the material in this link is of the nature of guidelines, rather definitive statements. I much appreciate both your input to this thread, and the professionalism of that input. Thank you very much. I do hope you stay involved in our shared interest.