A nimcha that was not.... :-)

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

The blade inscription is very poorly done, I expect someone tried to imitate majari blades :P

I agree Lofty, it is most interesting to see that they had placed enough importance on the apparant early devices and motifs to consider duplicating them rather than applying thier own. This would suggest that Hungarian swords may have been there in trade as early as 17th century, perhaps later, but whatever the case, the prototype influences seem apparent.

All the best,
Jim

[ariel]

Wrong post

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

Wrong post

Guess so.

[ariel]

Sorry for the confusion:-((

Now, the real stuff.
The Shibriya from Artzi Yarom's collection bears the engraved picture of a bird-like creature. This is eerily reminescent of the Transylvanian Knot motif.
The TK motif was very popular on Caucasian, more precisely old Circassian blades. They were mostly imitation and re-interpretations of the decorations seen on the imported Hungarian blades. Examples of real and Circassian-interpreted renditions are seen in the book of Astvatsaturyan on Caucasian weapons.

Circassians were forcibly exiled by the Russians in the 1860s. They went to the Ottoman Empire and were resettled in the Turkey proper, but mainly at the remote areas of the Ottoman Empire: Balkans, Syria, as well as what is now Israel and Jordan. The future capital of Jordan, Amman, was in fact a Shapsugh town, and there are Circassian villages in Israel - Rehaniya and Kfar Kama.
They still carry their old weapons and manufacture new ones with their ancient Circassian motives. The shibriya in Spiral's pic, - the one with niello, - has classic Circassian decorative motives, too: sparse geometric figures of bull horns.
I am wondering whether the shibriya shown here is one of those examples, and the "bird" is a remnant of the old Transylvanian Knot: Hungary to the Caucasus, to Israel, - a long and tortuous trek...
Here is a pic of Circassian men in Kfar Kama.

[spiral]

Intersting theory Ariel, possible as well!

If its not to much of a side track, I wonder if theres any possible historic connection to the fish symbol?

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Ariel for elaborating on this. I wish I had Emma's book at hand, but I was not among those brought with me in the bookmobile.
I think your interpretations from her books have been one of the vital denominators here in better understanding these Caucasian weapons and thier often key influences in so many other regions.

The illustration plate from Kovac's book is most telling, and as I mentioned I had never heard of the 'Transylvanian knot'. As I understand the curious sigil type device on the left and the unidentified and presumably bird figure at bottom are elements of the 'TK'. What I am wondering is how the bird figures in, and what the term itself applies to. It seems like most talismanically applied devices or images have some sort of history or traditional origin.
I am wondering if perhaps the 'TK' term derives from the often colorful and mysterious terms used in Caucasian parlance to describe these adopted markings and symbols, such as the 'gurda', 'ters maymal' and kaldam?

Are the words or terms inscribed in the bannerlike motif in that same plate, but above the images described included collectively in the 'TK' term, or are they simply included in the plate as markings? I am wondering what these words signify, makers name or an invocation?

I know very inquisitive, but you happen to not only have these references, but the language skills and contacts pertinant in using them. I would be most grateful for your further perspective on this questions, as I mentioned the one regarding those inscribed words having been perplexing for years in my ever open cases

All the best,
Jim

[ariel]

Dear Jim,
AFAIK, the locals put either a single mark on their blade, or the entire panoply: eg, Gorda + something else, Gorda and "little bees" ( stars, essentially), TK and Vivat Hussar or Virgo Maria, Patrona Hungariae ( misspelled, as a rule). It was a marketing tool, not different from any other culture.


Dear Spiral,
Never seen or heard of a fish on Caucasian blades. Old Mamluk swords apparently often had a fish as a handle fitting, but that's too far away and long gone:-)

[spiral]

Thank you Ariel. One to ponder...

Spiral