A nimcha that was not.... :-)

[spiral]

Interesting sword, No idea on the hilt...

Sometimes Syrians put slighty better renderd Doves on the blades, sharks to on occasion.

Doves & sharks is that the light & dark sides of weapons?

Spiral

[A.alnakkas]

I was watching this one.

The hilt looks identical to the ones coming out of Iraq. I have several come my way with wootz blades. The pattern seems that Iraqi's would have diff styles but rarely (if ever) cover the pommel.

Lotfy

[ariel]

Attached is a pic of the so-called Transylvanian Knot, a magical/talismanic mark on Hungarian blades XVI-XVIII centuries. There were several variants, see lower right and left.

Would love to see Syrian/Iraqi examples.

[spiral]

Sure Ariel...

Heres a poor dove on a Shibrya, {not mine.} {Dated 1942.} {photo at bottom, of all others....

& A shark {or tuna? } that is...

Top one in this photo.








Dated 1940.

Seem to recall seeing one on this forum on A Yemini Jambiya as well?

Spiral

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Ariel,

Check these:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16202

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15313

All of these came from Iraq. There was others aswell, one with a hilt very similar to yours but with a majari blade. It is sold now though.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by ariel

Attached is a pic of the so-called Transylvanian Knot, a magical/talismanic mark on Hungarian blades XVI-XVIII centuries. There were several variants, see lower right and left.

Would love to see Syrian/Iraqi examples.

The blade inscription is very poorly done, I expect someone tried to imitate majari blades :P

[Jim McDougall]

Wow! Ariel,
I think you have hit on something here! at least it has revealed something to me that has been a mystery for well over thirty years! I once acquired what was listed as an 18th century Hungarian Hussars sabre from a well known and somewhat notorious dealer. It had no scabbard and a somewhat damaged pistol grip Ottoman style with narrow crossguard quillons. The blade was virtually like this one, but most importantly there were engraved banner type devices with words like those described in the 'Transylvanian knot'....something I quite honestly have not been aware of.

Years later, I had become aware this was likely not Hungarian at all, but Arabian, and probably among the array of sabres used by various Bedouin tribes over vast regional probabilities. Reading Elgood, again years after that I realized that Hungarian blades had indeed often entered Arabia and presumed that was likely the case through various Ottoman entrepots.
What was always a mystery was what in the world were the strange words with those distinct 'z's , a maker, a motto?
Eventually in a transaction with another dealer I traded this away and quite clearly for 'a song' compared to what it cost me and now, even more clearly, it was more intrinsically valuable than I thought. He had minimized the wording and devices as 'jibberish' and insignificant, completely indecipherable.

This moment in reading this I realize those blade markings are exactly what you describe as the 'Transylanian knot', and something extremely important to me with my fascination in blade markings.

With the sword you have posted, the markings are clearly 'field' type ersatz markings applied to a refurbished sword in any number of circumstances in the long working lives of these Arabian sabres. It would appear to me that the stylized beaked birdhead hilt is compellingly like this early Hungarian form, and quite possibly an example of early components with added crossguard to the original blade, maybe even the hilt. I would be inclined to think that the hilt form, although shown as 17th century probably remained traditionally used well through the 18th c. in Hungary and environs. It certainly presents tempting associations worthy of further research.

I'd like to know more on this 'Transylvanian knot' for my own purposes on blade markings, and what sort of talismanic use etc. I know it doesnt necessarily apply to this blade overall, but the link to the sabre I owned years ago seems in accord with this example.

Outstanding example and keen observations, thank you!

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

The blade inscription is very poorly done, I expect someone tried to imitate majari blades :P

I agree Lofty, it is most interesting to see that they had placed enough importance on the apparant early devices and motifs to consider duplicating them rather than applying thier own. This would suggest that Hungarian swords may have been there in trade as early as 17th century, perhaps later, but whatever the case, the prototype influences seem apparent.

All the best,
Jim

[ariel]

Wrong post

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

Wrong post

Guess so.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Attached is a pic of the so-called Transylvanian Knot, a magical/talismanic mark on Hungarian blades XVI-XVIII centuries. There were several variants, see lower right and left.

Would love to see Syrian/Iraqi examples.

Salaams Ariel ~ Are the inscriptions linked to Hungarian mythology? I looked at Hungarian Mythology and saw various clues;

Turul (animal) The great bird resembling to a falcon that was sent forth by Isten to guide the creation and destiny of the Magyar people. The first kings after St Stephen I. were the hereditiary of Turul ("Turul nemzetség")

Griff (animal) Also known as griffin in Western Europe, but without special features. In Hungarian mythology, it is similar to turul. Featuring in some fairy tales (like Fehérlófia, The son of the white horse), it is a cruel, greedy bird eating humans, but its the only way to get back from Under World to Middle World.

The inscribed bird looks a Hungarian Partridge but could be amongst any of the 373 Hungarian bird species..

This is very interesting since this could be the source of the beak shaped (Falcon Head) Arabian/ Red Sea styles.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Ariel ~ Are the inscriptions linked to Hungarian mythology? I looked at Hungarian Mythology and saw various clues;

Turul (animal) The great bird resembling to a falcon that was sent forth by Isten to guide the creation and destiny of the Magyar people. The first kings after St Stephen I. were the hereditiary of Turul ("Turul nemzetség")

Griff (animal) Also known as griffin in Western Europe, but without special features. In Hungarian mythology, it is similar to turul. Featuring in some fairy tales (like Fehérlófia, The son of the white horse), it is a cruel, greedy bird eating humans, but its the only way to get back from Under World to Middle World.

The inscribed bird looks a Hungarian Partridge but could be amongst any of the 373 Hungarian bird species..

This is very interesting since this could be the source of the beak shaped (Falcon Head) Arabian/ Red Sea styles.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you so much Ibrahiim!
Your tenacity and skill at research is remarkable! and these are excellent clues toward some of these interesting markings and invocations on Hungarian blades as well as the distinct birds beak pommel. It seems to me that in Arabia falcons are very important, and it is interesting to see the 'turul' you found information on.
I still want to discover more on the 'Transylvanian knot' and would like to get that over to the Trademarks thread once we have some better footing on detail.

All the best,
Jim