Origin of this dagger?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Very nice piece - thanks for showing it! I have no input as to origin or age, so I'll sit back, watch and learn.

Regarding the material for the hilt, judging from the pics, I am not sure that it is ivory - the pores and nature of the cracks indicate some kind of bone. When bone gets very old and handled a lot, it will sometimes obtain a beautiful warm glow like we see here.

If you'd like, try taking a picture from the pommel-end. A pic from this angle might tell more. What is the length of the hilt, 12-14 cm?

Regarding the possibility of dugong ivory, I still haven't seen an example of this material used for a weapon hilt, and will remain highly skeptical of it's stated use in this way, until presented with evidence of the contrary.


Best wishes, - Thor

Hello Thor,

I am nearly sure that it isn't some sort of bone since there is no porosity in top of the handle.

Still vote for dugong, I have some keris handle from this material. A other possibility is whale tooth. I have to admit that I have problems to differ between this both materials. I have send pictures from the handle in question to a friend of mine who is firm by this materials. Tomorrow I will have answer and will post his opinion at this place.

And soon as I find the time I take pictures from dugong keris handles and post them as well.


Best regards,

Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Still vote for dugong, I have some keris handle from this material. A other possibility is whale tooth. I have to admit that I have problems to differ between this both materials. I have send pictures from the handle in question to a friend of mine who is firm by this materials. Tomorrow I will have answer and will post his opinion at this place.

And soon as I find the time I take pictures from dugong keris handles and post them as well.

Detlef, i am curious how you know that the material on your keris hilts is actually dugong and not some other source. AFAIK there are no really large pieces of dugong ivory so i understand why Thor is skeptical.
I do agree that this looks more like ivory than bone to me also. How large is just the hilt of this piece?

[Sajen]

Here is a picture from an old thread of a Palembang hilt made from dugong ivory.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

Detlef, i am curious how you know that the material on your keris hilts is actually dugong and not some other source. AFAIK there are no really large pieces of dugong ivory so i understand why Thor is skeptical.
I do agree that this looks more like ivory than bone to me also. How large is just the hilt of this piece?

Hello David,

like I write before, I am not really sure between whale bone and dugong but I know that both materials was used for keris hilts and other hilts in SEA.
Tusks from dugong are 20 until 25 cm long (approx. 8-10 inch), whale tooth are approx. 15 cm (6 inch) long. So they are large enough to carve handles from this material. A friend of mine have written a book about keris materials ( Faszination Kris, Zauber des Materials, Wolfgang Schilling) and he have confirmed the material of some from my keris handles.

Best regards,

Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello David,

like I write before, I am not really sure between whale bone and dugong but I know that both materials was used for keris hilts and other hilts in SEA.
Tusks from dugong are 20 until 25 cm long (approx. 8-10 inch), whale tooth are approx. 15 cm (6 inch) long. So they are large enough to carve handles from this material. A friend of mine have written a book about keris materials ( Faszination Kris, Zauber des Materials, Wolfgang Schilling) and he have confirmed the material of some from my keris handles.

Best regards,

Detlef

I guess i could see certain styles of thin handles carved from them as the tusks do tend to be rather thin. But how would you carve a hilt such as your example out of a source with this shape...

[Sajen]

Depend from how thick this tusks are. The handle I have shown for example is from a old thread and belong to Ganyawulung who stated that it is from this material. The handle from the dagger hilt in question is long & slender and surely can be carved from this material.

Antique elephant ivory have typical cracks. The handle from Ganya hasn't and the handle in question hasn't as well typical elephant ivory cracks, so I am nearly sure that both handle are not from elephant ivory. One sentence I have heard in Indonesia many many times: "When ivory don't have cracks it is recent or not from elephant!" The handle from the dagger Loedjoe have shown has cracks but this cracks are very different from cracks are shown from antique elephant ivory.

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Depend from how thick this tusks are. The handle I have shown for example is from a old thread and belong to Ganyawulung who stated that it is from this material. The handle from the dagger hilt in question is long and surely can be carved from this material.

The tusks, from the numerous examples i have looked out, just don't appear to actually be particularly thick. Ganja may have stated it was dugong simply because someone told him that. What i am getting at is that something isn't necessarily something simply because someone has said so. Word of mouth information should always be questioned, shouldn't it?

[Sajen]

Sure, you are right. But have a look to both handle and than for example to your ivory pommel gunong, you will see that this are different materials. I am still not sure if it is dugong or whale but for sure not elephant or hippo, so what should it be?
Of course is it very very difficult to be sure by pictures and without handling the material. A 100% sure result you only will get by chemical/physical analysis.