kris for comment

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Wouter,

I think that Jose was relating to the blade when he stated the Sulu origin.

Regards,

Detlef

I think he was as well. I would also suggest that we can be easily mislead by color (i.e. the yellowing of the MOP) in photographs, especially when they are taken by non-professionals who don't understand how to properly white balance or correct color in post production. Tungsten light, for instance, will cast a yellow hue on a photo that might not be there in reality. It also appears to me that some of the triangular pieces on the sheath stem appear just as yellow if not more than those pieces on the top sheath. I see nothing that particular points to this MOP work being done at different times.

[VANDOO]

THE ORIENTATION OF KRIS HANDLES COMES UP OFTEN. THIS EXAMPLE AS WELL AS OTHERS WAS LIKELY MOUNTED THAT WAY WHEN THE SCABBARD AND SHIETH WAS MADE. ( I THINK THIS BECAUSE WHOEVER DID ALL THE MOP SHELL WOULD LIKELY KNOW HOW IT SHOULD BE MOUNTED AND CERTIANLY WOULD NOT WANT TO HAVE TO REMOVE THE BLADE AND REMOUNT IT ESPECIALLY AS SOME MOP WOULD LIKELY COME OFF IN THE PROCESS.
WHEN MAKEING THE HOLE FOR THE TANG ON MANY IF NOT MOST THE TANG WILL ONLY FIT EASILY ONE WAY. UNLIKE THE JAPANESE SWORD COLLECTORS PHILIPPINE COLLECTORS SELDOM REMOVE HANDLES OFF MORO WEAPONS TO LOOK FOR A SIGNATURE SO MOST ARE LEFT AS THEY ARE.
IS IT POSSIBLE KREIS HANDLES ORIENTATED IN THIS BACKWARED WAY WERE FOR LEFT HANDED WARRIORS ?

THIS TYPE OF MOP WORK AND THE DESIGNS WAS WHAT I SAW A LOT OF IN ZAMBOANGA. THEY HAVE A BIG INDUSTRY USING MOP THERE AND DO VERY GOOD WORK IN THAT AREA LOTS OF MOP JEWELRY, BRACELETS ,NECKLACES, PINS ECT.

I AGREE THE BLADE IS LIKELY AN OLD ONE WITH A LATER REDO WITH MOP. IT SEEMS WHEN A WARRIOR HAS BEEN SUCESSFUL AND HAS PROSPERED WHEN HE TURNS THE BUSINESS OVER TO HIS SONS AND REITIRES HE DRESSES UP HIS KRIS AS A SYMBOL OF HIS SUCESS AND IT BECOMES A SORT OF PUSAKA (FAMILY HEIRLOOM). WALKING AROUND WITH A KERIS LIKE THIS ONE WOULD CATCH THE EYE AND SURELY SHOW YOU WERE SOMEONE SPECIAL IN THE VILLAGE.

[kai]

Hello Jacques,

I'm with Jose: blade is Sulu - looks fairly typical to me. Jose, could you please point out what feels Indonesian to you? I'd believe the blade to be from the "Span-Am war" period or even maybe a bit earlier like last quarter of 19th c.

Scabbard as well as hilt are distinctly Sulu and obviously a later restoration/replacement/addition (pre-WW2?). The MOP on the crosspiece, endpiece, and hilt are traditionally fastened with the pegs and most likely genuine (the very uncommon MOP grip would make this sword a status piece less suitable for fighting though).

The other, unusual MOP pieces are not traditionally fastened with pegs and I guess these could be post-WW2 additions to merely up the bling factor. Jacques, can you make out how these are attached?

The usual metal strips connecting the hilt to the asang-asang also appear to missing - maybe these got damaged/lost in a cleaning attempt and the hilt happened to be put on upside down afterwards? Heating the blade will help to get the hilt off; please take a pic of the hilt hole and the blade tang and post it - thanks!

Regards,
Kai

[VANDERNOTTE]

kai tanks for your time, imposible remouve the hilt fron the tang the wood
is too fragil over the mop
I learn a lot about kris
regard
jacques
(sorry for my ''anglais''

[kai]

You are welcome, Jacques!

imposible remouve the hilt fron the tang the wood
is too fragil over the mop

By carefully (and possibly repeated) heating the blade, the hilt can surely be removed without any damage. Search this forum for several detailed descriptions how to proceed.

It certainly would be worth the effort if only to turn the hilt into the correct position!

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

The usual metal strips connecting the hilt to the asang-asang also appear to missing - maybe these got damaged/lost in a cleaning attempt and the hilt happened to be put on upside down afterwards?

Might i suggest that these a sang-asang were never attached to this hilt. The position of the back one seems too far away and how would these be attached with the MOP anyway. Given the fragility of the MOP i can't imagine the attachment bands running up under the MOP. I believe these a sang-asang are leftover from the previous hilting as i do not believe this is the original hilt for this blade.

[Battara]

As I look at this again, I guess I was a little fooled by the asang-asang. They are truly done later than the blade. Their style and thinness sort of look Indonesian or Malay to me, if they were original and on a Malay or Indonesian sundang.

[Indianajones]

Jacques,
have a look at a pic Battara posted under the topic 'barong beauty'. The last pic he posted will show exactly your type of kris with the thin rattan lashing I meant (now gone and replaced by MOPshell) though with the engraved mop-shell pieces atop and bottom of the scabbard!

[David]

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Jacques,
have a look at a pic Battara posted under the topic 'barong beauty'. The last pic he posted will show exactly your type of kris with the thin rattan lashing I meant (now gone and replaced by MOPshell) though with the engraved mop-shell pieces atop and bottom of the scabbard!

Well, actually it shows a similar dress form. The blades on these two kris are quite different...

[Indianajones]

Okee, so the kris from Jacques and the kris from the pic would have a different place of origin David? I may know a bit but am far from an expert on this area. I understand the blade is Sulu so would also the whole kris be considered Sulu?
One can also notice the handle on the picture-kris is indeed in the opposite direction as the kris in question, as CharlesS noticed (first).

[Battara]

Originally Posted by David

Well, actually it shows a similar dress form. The blades on these two kris are quite different...

Yes this picture is from the 1960s........

[kai]

Hello Jose,

As I look at this again, I guess I was a little fooled by the asang-asang. They are truly done later than the blade. Their style and thinness sort of look Indonesian or Malay to me, if they were original and on a Malay or Indonesian sundang.

Yes, I forgot to comment on the asang-asang which appear to be later than the blade. It's well possible that these got replaced during on of the later restorations this kris apparently went through.

BTW, the other kris above also displays rather thin/slender asang-asang and may be from a similar period than our estimated replacement...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello David,

Sorry for being late to respond:

Might i suggest that these asang-asang were never attached to this hilt. The position of the back one seems too far away

Once turned, I guess that the hilt will be much more evenly situated between those 2 asang-asang.

and how would these be attached with the MOP anyway. Given the fragility of the MOP i can't imagine the attachment bands running up under the MOP. I believe these a sang-asang are leftover from the previous hilting as i do not believe this is the original hilt for this blade.

I'd like to see more close-ups of the base of the hilt, especially interesting would be details of a removed hilt (pics taken at an angle may suffice though).

If present, those metal straps could be fastened to the hilt with pins and any small ring-like ferrule or even a tiny band of rattan might be enough to stabilize them under stress despite the (weak and brittle) MOP. OTOH, I agree that this kris in its present incarnation wasn't intended to be a personal weapon but rather something to show off status.

Regards,
Kai