The Falchion or Malchus, the rarest medieval sword

wardlaw · 11th October 2012, 01:37 PM

Thanks Fernando.

I was going back over the thread and I see that J.G.Elmslie had already suggested a link between these blade forms. i am sure that he is right. I would also look at the hunting swords as another member of the family.

Wiht regard to the image of St Peter from Cracow, I wonder if the archetype here might not be the cleaver-like knife from a hunting trousseau? The argument against that, of course, is the hilt form, which is clearly sword rather than knife.

The synchronicity of three of us all working on aspects of falchions and messers is quite terrifying!

J.G.Elmslie · 11th October 2012, 05:56 PM

Guilty as charged.

I've been a bit lax in my research the last few months; been sidelined by historical consultancy work for a videogame company. It pays the bills...

that said, I've generally come to a few conclusions, as the research has slowly progressed, and I've been fortunate enough to address design details with the likes of Peter Johnsson.

I'm absolutely in agreement with (Mr?)Wardlaw, in regards to the hunting swords as well as messer. studying the falchion in isolation is futile, what's needed is the data on all the single-edged weapon forms of western europe - falchion, messer, the langes messer, the single-edged hangers, and the single-edged swords like the Bankside Sword now in the Royal Armouries.

All of these are inter-related, not just in terms of the handling properties, but in their design, construction, and their methodologies of use and the relevance in terms of social structure.

I'm steadily feeling that things like the messer were more popular in germanic regions as a result of cultural values, more than any practical difference in the weapons' performance, but also that their production was dictated by the different social structures, not so much the old trotted out idea of swords only being the property of certain social classes, but that sword production was the perogative of certain facets of the guilds, who each jealously guarded their niche markets, and in the case of cutlers and knife-blade makers, were actively wanting to muscle in on the economic markets that their similar skills could exploit.

I also cant help but feel that the falchion, messer and single-edged sword must be addressed and studied in light of Peter Johnsson's superb presentations/papers/potential book(s?) on the subject of the inter-relation between the medieval sword and geometric proportions. That may well begin to answer the question of asking is the falchion's place in social structures, in military importance, and in active use, different to that of the knightly sword? Research will have to be taken to compare the existing samples to their contemporary double edged weapons to find potential associations; particularly valuable there will be the castillon falchion, where there is the association with the Castillon Type C double-edged swords which have been found to have plausible associations of geometric proportion. Is it the case that a falchion which has quite likely come from the same cutler's wokshop bears similar proportional geometry, or is it entirely different? That's a unique case of a control subject for both sides of the divide. That study will determine if there's any links between the theories Peter's putting forward, of connotations of the design of the medieval european sword as an extension of God's divinity, and the numerical symbolism popular among the educated medieval thinkers, and if that then links into the specific commentary by the likes of John of Salisbury, in "policraticus", where the phrases such as "His word is indeed a sharp two-edged sword" appear - not a sword, but a two-edged sword. Does this indicate the association of the single-edged sword with work that is not reighteous? There's a whole load of un-answered questions there just begging to be looked at. We already know that the falchion is often seen in the hands of the heretic, the blasphemer, the infidel, in medieval art - the falchion/scimitar weilding turk, the depiction of Goliath, the soldier in the Crucifixion. Can those connotations be not just a visual imagery for the artwork, but also a design consideration that may, to some extent give a possible explanation for the disparity between prevalence in art, and in the archaeological record? I dont know, yet.
Such studies must be done, and are as relevant as establishing a typology, or establishing a database of the actual mechanical properties of these weapons.

The more you dive into the single-edged european arms, the more the falchion becomes just one aspect, and the deeper the rabbit-hole becomes...

cornelistromp · 11th October 2012, 06:30 PM

the relationship between the falchion and the messer? well

the only thing consistent with the Falchion and Messer is that they both are single edged.
The Falchion is a sword with a pommel and cross, necessary to be a sword.
the grosses messer has no pommel and usually no cross, but a thorn or curved riveted parry plate, and of course grip plates necessary to be a messer.
swords were made by sword cutlers, and messers by a knife cutler, who were not allowed to make swords.
also in terms of geometry, they are not comparable, both the balance points and pivot points differ the maximum possible.
I believe that there is a geometric relationship in the design of these messers similar to swords, which can be tested with the excellent theory of Peter.
on the other hand you see the Falchion develop into curved single edged swords (with a pommel and cross) and cutlasses. eg dussage, storta

best,

Timo Nieminen · 11th October 2012, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Falchion and Messer [...]
in terms of geometry, they are not comparable, both the balance points and pivot points differ the maximum possible.

Do you have any numbers at hand, or suitable references? These would be very interesting to see.

J.G.Elmslie · 11th October 2012, 10:11 PM

likewise, I'd be interested in data on messer for my work on the subject, I've got my hands on only two examples so far (And have yet to even start thinking about collecting data on where in the world has examples of them for the study of them.) But what I've seen in artwork suggests that particularly for 15th C stuff that there's quite a few with fundamental similarities in design to the falchions.

the discussions I've been fortunate enough to have with Peter Johnsson have also helped me feel that its plausible that falchion and messer can (in some situations) have really rather similar blade design principles, and be differentiated by hilt construction method only.

so, any info would be most welcome.

cornelistromp · 12th October 2012, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.G.Elmslie

likewise, I'd be interested in data on messer for my work on the subject, I've got my hands on only two examples so far (And have yet to even start thinking about collecting data on where in the world has examples of them for the study of them.) But what I've seen in artwork suggests that particularly for 15th C stuff that there's quite a few with fundamental similarities in design to the falchions.

the discussions I've been fortunate enough to have with Peter Johnsson have also helped me feel that its plausible that falchion and messer can (in some situations) have really rather similar blade design principles, and be differentiated by hilt construction method only.

so, any info would be most welcome.

I have 3 Messers in my collection,

see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=messer post#1

pm me your mail adres and I will mail you the details, I can also send directly to Peter Johnsson if you want.
I'm curious how the widest point of the blade, at the second half of the blade at a Falchion, can be expressed in the old geometry "rigthteousness is quadrangular"

best,

J.G.Elmslie · 12th October 2012, 04:07 PM

Having just clicked the link and seen the photos, I just developed a strange medical condition, and turned a thorough shade of green...

you lucky, lucky bastard.

(I mean that in the best possible way, I hasten to add.

)

I'll send a PM in a moment about that.
I'm likewise rather interested to see if and how the geometry might (or might not) be found to have an association for this type of weapon too. Having seen his presentation on the subject, I'm certain it was used for some swords, but I am sceptical it was used for all. But finding the same sort of ratios in a messer would be really exciting.

11th October 2012, 05:56 PM	#2
J.G.Elmslie Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Inverness & Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 17	Guilty as charged. I've been a bit lax in my research the last few months; been sidelined by historical consultancy work for a videogame company. It pays the bills... that said, I've generally come to a few conclusions, as the research has slowly progressed, and I've been fortunate enough to address design details with the likes of Peter Johnsson. I'm absolutely in agreement with (Mr?)Wardlaw, in regards to the hunting swords as well as messer. studying the falchion in isolation is futile, what's needed is the data on all the single-edged weapon forms of western europe - falchion, messer, the langes messer, the single-edged hangers, and the single-edged swords like the Bankside Sword now in the Royal Armouries. All of these are inter-related, not just in terms of the handling properties, but in their design, construction, and their methodologies of use and the relevance in terms of social structure. I'm steadily feeling that things like the messer were more popular in germanic regions as a result of cultural values, more than any practical difference in the weapons' performance, but also that their production was dictated by the different social structures, not so much the old trotted out idea of swords only being the property of certain social classes, but that sword production was the perogative of certain facets of the guilds, who each jealously guarded their niche markets, and in the case of cutlers and knife-blade makers, were actively wanting to muscle in on the economic markets that their similar skills could exploit. I also cant help but feel that the falchion, messer and single-edged sword must be addressed and studied in light of Peter Johnsson's superb presentations/papers/potential book(s?) on the subject of the inter-relation between the medieval sword and geometric proportions. That may well begin to answer the question of asking is the falchion's place in social structures, in military importance, and in active use, different to that of the knightly sword? Research will have to be taken to compare the existing samples to their contemporary double edged weapons to find potential associations; particularly valuable there will be the castillon falchion, where there is the association with the Castillon Type C double-edged swords which have been found to have plausible associations of geometric proportion. Is it the case that a falchion which has quite likely come from the same cutler's wokshop bears similar proportional geometry, or is it entirely different? That's a unique case of a control subject for both sides of the divide. That study will determine if there's any links between the theories Peter's putting forward, of connotations of the design of the medieval european sword as an extension of God's divinity, and the numerical symbolism popular among the educated medieval thinkers, and if that then links into the specific commentary by the likes of John of Salisbury, in "policraticus", where the phrases such as "His word is indeed a sharp two-edged sword" appear - not a sword, but a two-edged sword. Does this indicate the association of the single-edged sword with work that is not reighteous? There's a whole load of un-answered questions there just begging to be looked at. We already know that the falchion is often seen in the hands of the heretic, the blasphemer, the infidel, in medieval art - the falchion/scimitar weilding turk, the depiction of Goliath, the soldier in the Crucifixion. Can those connotations be not just a visual imagery for the artwork, but also a design consideration that may, to some extent give a possible explanation for the disparity between prevalence in art, and in the archaeological record? I dont know, yet. Such studies must be done, and are as relevant as establishing a typology, or establishing a database of the actual mechanical properties of these weapons. The more you dive into the single-edged european arms, the more the falchion becomes just one aspect, and the deeper the rabbit-hole becomes... Last edited by J.G.Elmslie; 11th October 2012 at 06:08 PM.

11th October 2012, 06:30 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	the relationship between the falchion and the messer? well the only thing consistent with the Falchion and Messer is that they both are single edged. The Falchion is a sword with a pommel and cross, necessary to be a sword. the grosses messer has no pommel and usually no cross, but a thorn or curved riveted parry plate, and of course grip plates necessary to be a messer. swords were made by sword cutlers, and messers by a knife cutler, who were not allowed to make swords. also in terms of geometry, they are not comparable, both the balance points and pivot points differ the maximum possible. I believe that there is a geometric relationship in the design of these messers similar to swords, which can be tested with the excellent theory of Peter. on the other hand you see the Falchion develop into curved single edged swords (with a pommel and cross) and cutlasses. eg dussage, storta best, Attached Images

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11th October 2012, 01:37 PM	#1
wardlaw Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Somerset, UK Posts: 8	Thanks Fernando. I was going back over the thread and I see that J.G.Elmslie had already suggested a link between these blade forms. i am sure that he is right. I would also look at the hunting swords as another member of the family. Wiht regard to the image of St Peter from Cracow, I wonder if the archetype here might not be the cleaver-like knife from a hunting trousseau? The argument against that, of course, is the hilt form, which is clearly sword rather than knife. The synchronicity of three of us all working on aspects of falchions and messers is quite terrifying!

11th October 2012, 10:11 PM	#5
J.G.Elmslie Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Inverness & Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 17	likewise, I'd be interested in data on messer for my work on the subject, I've got my hands on only two examples so far (And have yet to even start thinking about collecting data on where in the world has examples of them for the study of them.) But what I've seen in artwork suggests that particularly for 15th C stuff that there's quite a few with fundamental similarities in design to the falchions. the discussions I've been fortunate enough to have with Peter Johnsson have also helped me feel that its plausible that falchion and messer can (in some situations) have really rather similar blade design principles, and be differentiated by hilt construction method only. so, any info would be most welcome.

12th October 2012, 04:07 PM	#7
J.G.Elmslie Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Inverness & Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 17	Having just clicked the link and seen the photos, I just developed a strange medical condition, and turned a thorough shade of green... you lucky, lucky bastard. (I mean that in the best possible way, I hasten to add. ) I'll send a PM in a moment about that. I'm likewise rather interested to see if and how the geometry might (or might not) be found to have an association for this type of weapon too. Having seen his presentation on the subject, I'm certain it was used for some swords, but I am sceptical it was used for all. But finding the same sort of ratios in a messer would be really exciting.