SCHIAVONA SWORD VARIATIONS.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by sioume

Hi all,


About the Passau wolf on the blade, is it coherent to say that a blade could have been made in Passau and guard, pommel, quillons in Hungary.?
I read on Oakeshott books that parts of the swords can be made in several locations and put togheter in one. Blades due to their costs were often reused and swords becoming then composite.
What about that?

All the best
Alain

Hi Alain,

Although blades, just like barrels, were exported widely it is more reasonable to assume that a blade showing a wolf mark and combined with an Eastern European hilt was most probably made in the same country as the hilt and, as I pointed out, the wolf was copied as a traditional trade mark because it was generally associated with superior quality.

Best,
Michael

[VANDOO]

I HAVE JUST ENJOYED REVISITING AND READING THIS POST AND LOOKING AT THE PRETTY PICTURES. I NOTICIED SOMETHING ABOUT ONE EXAMPLE I POSTED EARLY IN THE POST. HERE IS A PICTURE OF IT SO YOU WON'T HAVE TO GO SEARCH TO SEE WHAT I AM REFERRING TO.
THE GAURD IS FORMED WITH FINGER JOINTS AND A CLAW AT THE END. PERHAPS A DRAGON OR CHIMERAS CLAWS ARE REPRESENTED. VERY COOL DON'T SEE HOW I MISSED IT BEFORE.

[sioume]

Thanks Michael for explanations.
So how someone can recognize a blade made in Passau and one with a wolf mark on it on it?
What differentiates them?

Thank for helping
Best
Alain

[Enibas]

I am new in the forum, so at first I say Hello to all.


I think it is not easy to recognize a real blade from Passau. But it is well known, that a lot of blades from Passau were sold to the Steiermark (Styria).

Certainly we would find in the Zeughaus Graz (Armoury of Graz, Styria) many
blades from Passau, which could be useful for comparative purposes.

In his book "Die Passauer Wolfsklingen" the author Dr. Heinz Huther noted a consistent practice of stamping and inlaying the wolfs mark of Passau by the craftsmen since 16th century.

But if that's true, why should not this practice have been copied also by other craftsmen?

The blades of passau are worth a new topic, I guess.

king regards
Ben

P.s.The sciavona shown by Vandoo is great! In my opinion a very old type around 1600 or before.

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum Enibas
... and thanks for your interesting input .

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by sioume

Thanks Michael for explanations.
So how someone can recognize a blade made in Passau and one with a wolf mark on it on it?
What differentiates them?

Thank for helping
Best
Alain

Hi Alain,


As Ben has pointed out in the meantime - thanks, Ben, and welcome here - differentiating between original Passau wolves and their manifold copies is virtually impossible.
I guess that as time passed, some 500-400 years ago, less armories were ready to pay the considerably higher prices charged for 'real' Passau blades claimed to have been imported from that Lower Bavarian city.

It seems to have become generally accepted in weaponry that saying 'Passau wolf' implies 'Passau style wolf'; the same applies to 'Solingen' wolves.
For a couple of decades, this lead arms historians to call many of those wolves 'contemporary fakes'. I think that that the neutral term copy would be more appropriate as nothing like a copyright existed in those historical times.


Best,
m

[pappa-karlo]

I have Schiavone with unknown characters. Does anyone know what is it?

[fernando]

Maybe upside down ?

.

[Enibas]

Hello Pappa-karlo,

just I saw your niece piece. Quite perfect hilt, nice pommel.

I guess, that the stamped letters are cyrillic.
We can find a sciavona, also younger type (18th century ) with "three ladders" in the Collection Carl Beck. Sursee (Swiss). There is the name "Sava" stamped in cyrillic letters into the hilt (http://www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/waffe67.html). The author Boccia mentions five Sciavone with the lettering "Sava" in cyrillic. It is assumed that this is the name of the master, who built the hilts.
Thus, it could be here to be a master signature
In this case, would Pappa-Karlo's sciavona also a hint that not only o n e master in cyrillic letters signed. Certainly there were no Italians, signed in Cyrillic, but there were craftsmen from abroad. Perhaps these craftsmen came from the Balkans. The rich Venice undoubtedly attracted numerous artisans from abroad and also had the need.

May be someone in the forum who can translate this cyrillic letters?

Very unusually is the plate at the hilt.
I am sorry, I did not found a english term for "Stichblatt" . Never see before. But I've seen other modifications to sciavone. and do not rule out that the plate is mounted original. Thank your very much for showing, Pappa-Karlo!

[aurelius56]

Originally Posted by fernando

Maybe upside down ?

.

Hello, this is my very first post :-) Yes - this letters are so called Croatian Cyrilic used up to the end of XVIII cent. and it reads Grgur (Gregory). It is very common marking on 3-row late XVIII cent. schiavona hilts. This particullar schiavona is mounted with XVIII cent. Austrian pallosh blade - not uncommon at all.
Regards, Zlatko

Addition - you may find longer version of this inscription in E.Oakeshott: "European Weapons and Armour" page 189 fig. 87 - "Grgur majstor" - meaning Gregory artisan - indicating local hilt production in Dalmatia.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE GAURD IS FORMED WITH FINGER JOINTS AND A CLAW AT THE END. PERHAPS A DRAGON OR CHIMERAS CLAWS ARE REPRESENTED. VERY COOL DON'T SEE HOW I MISSED IT BEFORE.

Hi Barry,

I have sometimes seen those joints elaborated as actual human fingers on rapier hilts!

m