Tulwar with pronounced Yelman.

Norman McCormick · 26th June 2012, 10:44 PM

Hi Jim,
Many thanks, once again, for your insight and your time. It was a mucky old warrior when I got it and I'm delighted that apart from the basic historical and form interest it may be earlier than I had hoped. I do think the blade has more to reveal about its construction and make up. I did notice that after cleaning the blade was very quick to oxidize taking on a darker shade when left overnight. This obviously has to be a product of the metallurgy of the blade itself which must contain a reactive element. I have attached photos of the pommels of the other two Tulwars for comparison and completeness, the colour should point to which belongs to which. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2012, 11:18 PM

My pleasure Norman, I enjoy the opportunity to see excellent examples like this and try to learn from them. Naturally my views are speculative but I feel fairly soundly based on what I can see and on notes I have looked into.
Again, I appreciate you showing the pommel dish interiors. It has been another of the mysteries of these fascinating sabres as to just how much inherent symbolism may be held in the varying motifs and designs within these disc arrangement, in addition of course with the floral and geometric motifs often in the overall decoration.
The Mughals are known to have selected various botanical themes as dynastic totems so there are possibilities, while Rajput clans similarly are aligned with various celestial and elemental themes. All these things simply add to the intrigue of these Indian arms and it is great to see interest in them among collectors. Thank you so much for sharing these.

All the best,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd July 2012, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
Many thanks, once again, for your insight and your time. It was a mucky old warrior when I got it and I'm delighted that apart from the basic historical and form interest it may be earlier than I had hoped. I do think the blade has more to reveal about its construction and make up. I did notice that after cleaning the blade was very quick to oxidize taking on a darker shade when left overnight. This obviously has to be a product of the metallurgy of the blade itself which must contain a reactive element. I have attached photos of the pommels of the other two Tulwars for comparison and completeness, the colour should point to which belongs to which. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Salaams Norman McCormick ~ Nice Swords indeed. I noticed that the right hand picture shows a sun burst design based on the geometric figure 33. That would indicate Islamic origins. Moghul...?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd July 2012, 05:17 PM

Some of the Hindu clans, like the Chauhans, Paramara, Gosh, and Solankis are Agnivanshis, or ’fire born’, descendants from the sun, while other clans are said to be descendants from the moon.

This goes back for a very long time, long before the Muslims and the Moghuls.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd July 2012, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Some of the Hindu clans, like the Chauhans, Paramara, Gosh, and Solankis are Agnivanshis, or ’fire born’, descendants from the sun, while other clans are said to be descendants from the moon.

This goes back for a very long time, long before the Muslims and the Moghuls.

Yes 4,000 years isnt it?... I think the longest ever running dynasty if you discount the British period.. My point was the 33 points of the sunburst ~ did they use that configuration?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd July 2012, 06:22 PM

I honestly don't know, as my researches never too me in that direction.
Please tell us about the 33 points of the sunburst, as I am sure it is unknown to many - thanks for mentioning it.
Jens

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd July 2012, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I honestly don't know, as my researches never too me in that direction.
Please tell us about the 33 points of the sunburst, as I am sure it is unknown to many - thanks for mentioning it.
Jens

Salaams Jens, It always is a pleasure to see you on forum and your posts always grab my attention ~ Yaa Ustad !!

The 33 / 99 configuration seen in the bead structure of Islamic religious beads measures the number of words for God. There is a short manageable 33 version and a full 99 long version with it is said... a 100th word which is secret. The 33 and 99 are easily interpreted into geometrical artwork and often seen on Islamic trays and pots etc etc as well as in architecture and in calligraphy and weapons... in this case the 33 sunbursts of what I assume is an Islamic Sword of the Moghul period.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd July 2012, 08:30 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim for you answer. People should learn something new every day they live, and I did to day.

Your explanation seems to be a valid one, on that should be looked more into.

The more I have read about Indian art, architecture, weapons, geography, mining and what do I know, the less I seem to know – as the more you know, the more unanswered questions seem to pop up.

My wish is, that more collectors would realise this.

Btw what does Yaa Ustad mean?

Jens

26th June 2012, 10:44 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Jim, Many thanks, once again, for your insight and your time. It was a mucky old warrior when I got it and I'm delighted that apart from the basic historical and form interest it may be earlier than I had hoped. I do think the blade has more to reveal about its construction and make up. I did notice that after cleaning the blade was very quick to oxidize taking on a darker shade when left overnight. This obviously has to be a product of the metallurgy of the blade itself which must contain a reactive element. I have attached photos of the pommels of the other two Tulwars for comparison and completeness, the colour should point to which belongs to which. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

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26th June 2012, 11:18 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	My pleasure Norman, I enjoy the opportunity to see excellent examples like this and try to learn from them. Naturally my views are speculative but I feel fairly soundly based on what I can see and on notes I have looked into. Again, I appreciate you showing the pommel dish interiors. It has been another of the mysteries of these fascinating sabres as to just how much inherent symbolism may be held in the varying motifs and designs within these disc arrangement, in addition of course with the floral and geometric motifs often in the overall decoration. The Mughals are known to have selected various botanical themes as dynastic totems so there are possibilities, while Rajput clans similarly are aligned with various celestial and elemental themes. All these things simply add to the intrigue of these Indian arms and it is great to see interest in them among collectors. Thank you so much for sharing these. All the best, Jim

3rd July 2012, 05:17 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Some of the Hindu clans, like the Chauhans, Paramara, Gosh, and Solankis are Agnivanshis, or ’fire born’, descendants from the sun, while other clans are said to be descendants from the moon. This goes back for a very long time, long before the Muslims and the Moghuls.

3rd July 2012, 06:22 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I honestly don't know, as my researches never too me in that direction. Please tell us about the 33 points of the sunburst, as I am sure it is unknown to many - thanks for mentioning it. Jens

3rd July 2012, 08:30 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Ibrahiim for you answer. People should learn something new every day they live, and I did to day. Your explanation seems to be a valid one, on that should be looked more into. The more I have read about Indian art, architecture, weapons, geography, mining and what do I know, the less I seem to know – as the more you know, the more unanswered questions seem to pop up. My wish is, that more collectors would realise this. Btw what does Yaa Ustad mean? Jens