New Keris/Keris baru

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Firstly we need to classify the keris. We do not apply the same standards to a Senopaten keris, as we do to a Surakarta keris.

Jussi, Alan's remark above is the my reasoning for the art comparison that i presented. Certainly paintings are not the same as keris, but i still think the analogy is still an effective one.
Alan, thank you for this excellent summary. While i realize much more can be said on the subject this is the best brief i have read on the subject to date. Unfortunately i would say that the greater number of us do not have either the resources nor the opportunity to approach this from the position of apprentice to a keris ahli. My only course of action is to continue to look, listen and learn where and when i can, to take advice from people i trust and continue to collect the keris that i feel "call" to me. I believe that i have developed some recognition of quality, but certainly do not have the knowledge of exactly what is to be expected from keris quality from all the different tangguhs. And while i feel that i do in fact know how to recognize quality in general i will openly admit that i have a few keris that i truly love despite their obvious lack of quality because in my own estimation they hold great "character".
Now i would like to extent the painting analogy just a step further and play a bit of devil's advocate if you all don't mind. Please understand Alan that i do absolutely agree with you in regards to all you say, including the need to study with a keris ahli for a complete understanding of these matters. But this brings to mind the question of authorities in all kinds of social hierarchy. Certainly one would need to find a teacher that they could trust and one whose knowledge was considered accurate and comprehensive by their peers. And this leads me to my next analogy. I have recently caught the BBC show Fake or Fortune? a number of times. One episode in particular attempts to authenticate a painting as a Monet that a fellow had owned for more than a decade. They go to great lengths on this show to get to the bottom of this mystery and find many experts who feel sure that the painting in question was indeed painted by Monet. I was convinced that they had established all the provenance necessary by the end of the show. But when they final had the opportunity to present the painting to the Wildenstein Institute, the accepted final word authority on all things Monet, they refused to authenticate the painting. Without their approval this painting will never be fully accepted as a real Monet regardless of what any other expert has to say about it. You can read about the case here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bords_d...e_à_Argenteuil
I realize that this is an extreme case, but i think it illustrates that experts are often at odds with one another. In the end i think i still must conduct my collecting based upon my own personal likes and dislikes. This does, of course, need to be an educated perspective. The more i "know" the more i am capable of appreciating. The more i learn, the more my understanding and appreciation can grow. But for now i simply must collect with my "gut". As a certain Monty Python skit once pronounced, "I may not know art, but i know what i like!"

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by David

Jussi, Alan's remark above is the my reasoning for the art comparison that i presented. Certainly paintings are not the same as keris, but i still think the analogy is still an effective one. (...) In the end i think i still must conduct my collecting based upon my own personal likes and dislikes. This does, of course, need to be an educated perspective. The more i "know" the more i am capable of appreciating. The more i learn, the more my understanding and appreciation can grow. But for now i simply must collect with my "gut". As a certain Monty Python skit once pronounced, "I may not know art, but i know what i like!"

David - I am not in variance to what you are saying. It´s just that analogies can be a difficult means of communication as different people see and associate different things alike and vice versa, alike things differently. Now that I´ve read your answer above I see that I misunderstood what you meant. Possibly because I am handicapped at the English language as it is not my native language. It can, of course, also be that I simply look at things from a different perspective. This does not necessarily have anything to do with the way you presented your case; it´s on the other end where the interpretation is done. - Believe me, as a teacher I know how differently different people can interpret things said or written

[dbhmgb]

WOW - a fantastic thread for a new-comer to the keris! Thank you all for your contributions.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes David, all experts are not equal.

Brings to mind the old "oils ain't oils" ad.

Tangguh understanding is central to keris understanding, but even in Jawa many very highly respected people say "tangguh nggak sungguh" : "tangguh isn't real"

It doesn't matter if its real or not. It is a solid system of classification, and people of approximately equal knowledge will not vary very much in their assessments of an applicable tangguh, meaning that, for instance, a Surakarta keris from the 19th century will never be identified as a Pajajaran keris, or a Majapahit keris, or a Pajang keris. Whatever tangguh is agreed upon, that tangguh will give an indication of relative age. I stress "relative".

But at its foundation tangguh is about money. It is not about playing a game with keris to see who the smartest bloke in the room is.

It is also about keris of good quality.

At this point we enter the circle of reason, or put another way, circular reasoning.

We need to be able to identify quality in the absence of tangguh, and we do this by using the universals I've mentioned above, plus a few other indicators, such as cross section of sogokan, regularity and form of greneng, the nearness to mirror image of each face of the keris, the form and robustness of the gonjo --- etc. Little things that can tell us if this keris was really made by somebody with skill, or not.

If we decide that, yes, this is a nicely made keris, then we closely examine the indicators to try to place that keris into a legitimate classification, or tangguh, and tangguh is a system that was developed primarily to classify keris of quality. Investment property.

As I have said:- its all about money.

Salesmen will very, very frequently present a Koripan keris as Mataram, Sultan Agung. A Koripan keris has the same form as a Mataram SA, but it is marginally more coarse in some details, and it lacks "presence". The value of a Mataram SA is vastly more than a Koripan in equal condition.

The examples of misrepresentation go on and on. Gresik for Pajajaran, Tuban-Majapahit for Majapahit, Mataram-Matesih for Amangkurat --- and on, and on and on.

In Jawa, if you do not understand tangguh and you want to buy keris you are setting yourself up for not only considerable loss of money, but perhaps disappointment when you eventually discover the truth. In the Western World, this doesn't matter. You can go on believing that your Koripan is Mataram SA forever, and it is unlikely that you will ever be disillusioned. But in Jawa, sooner or later you will meet somebody with understanding and by then its too late to run back to the dealer. You've done your dough --- or you perpetuate the lie.

Keris collecting in the Western World, and in Jawa are very different entities. In the Western World we mostly do not outlay serious sums of money for keris. In Jawa the serious collector may outlay a sum of money equivalent to the cost of a house. Under these conditions it is imperative that there is some understanding of the system that sets the ground rules for value.

As for validation of an acquisition upon the basis of "I like it", I do exactly the same thing, a lot of my personal collection is comprised of "keris that I like". Not much value to anybody except me.

[Jean]

Truly excellent threads Alan, you said it all, thank you!

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

....you said it all....

Somehow i doubt that, but it's a good start...

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Jean, but as David has indicated, what I have written is a very long way from everything that there is to be known about this facet of keris understanding.

However, anybody who can absorb what I've written and who then uses it as a basis for increase of knowledge will be a long way along the road towards avoiding regrettable error.