Provenance, what is it worth?

[David]

Originally Posted by Swordfish

These examples demonstrate again, a good provenance may be helpful, but in no case replaces close examination of the items and sufficient own knowledge.

Forgive me Swordfish, but this seems so obvious as to hardly be worth mentioning. The bottom line is that for the most part, people who can throw 40 or 50,000 euro at items sight unseen based on auction descriptions are usually not real collectors at all, they are investors. Of course provenance is no substitute for accumulated knowledge and hands-on inspection. You don't buy the story, you buy the item, something any seasoned collector understands. And lack of knowledge is not the same as stupidity and i see no positive side to accusing collectors who make mistakes in judgement as being stupid.

[Jim McDougall]

Well made point David, in current times with the volatility of the world economy there has been dramatic increase in investing in material goods such as antiquities, and the escalation of prices to ridiculous levels has brought out the worst in circumstances for collectors. Naturally this has completely muddled the field with 'ambitious' items and devious sellers who have reached remarkable skills in thier treachery.
While it seems patently obvious to most of us who have long been 'in the game', there are constantly new enthusiasts joining us who may not be as aware as many of us with years of experience. I think the term stupid as used in Swordfish's post is simply borne out of the frustration we all feel or have felt with the often maddening events and circumstances that reflect poor research, devious description and presentation etc.

As always, I think more of the thousands of readers out there who read our pages and are often new or not yet that well informed, but read here in hopes of advancing thier knowledge from more experienced individuals.
To them I say read carefully, learn all you can, and caveat emptor!

All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Originally Posted by David

... And lack of knowledge is not the same as stupidity and i see no positive side to accusing collectors who make mistakes in judgement as being stupid.

Absolutely !
Lack of knowledge or, for the same matter, natural believe on other party's good faith, is hardly a characteristic to be measured with the same gauge as IQ levels.

[cornelistromp]

I did made some stupid purchases ​​during the beginning of my collectors career.
I file it under the cat. learning money.

best,

[Swordfish]

I'm sure that every collector has already made mistakes by paying too high prices or acquiring fakes, me too. But my loss was tolerable and I learned from my mistakes. This is not what I call stupid and I probably used the wrong term. But it is also not only lack of knowledge.
For example the sallet sold at Christie's 2001. The catalogue mentioned that the lower half of the helmet was replaced. How shall I call someone who nevertheless paid Euro 39.000 for it?
Also there is a hard rule that every collector should learn at first: you can trust neither any antique dealer nor any auction expert.

Best

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Swordfish

... How shall I call someone who nevertheless paid Euro 39.000 for it? ...

Try money laundering

[David]

Originally Posted by Swordfish

Also there is a hard rule that every collector should learn at first: you can trust neither any antique dealer nor any auction expert

While there are no doubt many nefarious dealers in the world of antique arms i find the extreme of you statement patently untrue. I buy the vast majority of my antique keris for just a couple of trusted dealers. These are relationships built over time and i trust these dealers implicitly. I am sorry that you have yet to find such a dealer for your own needs, but i can assure you that they do exist out there.
I am sure that what ever the reasons for someone buying an item for 39,000 euro that was clearly revealed as being partially replaced, stupidity was not among them. You simply don't have that kind of money to spend on purely luxury items like antique armor by being stupid. The rich do as they please with their money, who are we to judge? We will never know the buyers reasoning, but i am sure he had one. Maybe he just liked it. Is there some reason that it bothers you so much?

[Dmitry]

Link to the sallet -
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/a...2-7d935fd5d8ff

I wonder how and why the lower portion was attached to the top. You can clearly see the uneven line where the two meet, but I don't see any signs of welding. Perhaps this sallet was restored after being squashed.. Anyway, the rivets look new, the rest of the photo looks quite cohesive.

[Swordfish]

I have examined the sallet at the auction in Lucerne. The dividing line between the two parts goes round the sallet, on the outside this is only partly visible, but is clearly visible on the inside. Furthermore the inside and outside surface of the two parts differ noticeable. The two parts must have been welded together, perhaps in the 19th century or later.

Best