Two handed swords

elfina · 2nd May 2012, 05:19 AM

Thanks for your reply, Michael!

Actually, my lack of expertise on katzbalgers and other 16th century swords has already cost me a lot of money. About eight years ago I purchased what was purportedly a genuine katzbalger from a dealer (now deceased) who shall go nameless. I found out through Bonhams (I think it was Bonhams and Butterfields then) it was a fake as were the bastard sword, war hammer, and two handed sword I also bought from this dealer (some of the items were not strictly fakes apparently; rather, they were Victorian copies, though the dealer described them as genuine originals). I ended up disposing of all of them through Bonhams in their San Francisco sale of June 29, 2005. If you have a copy of this catalog, the four items I mentioned are on page 79: 2413, 2414, 2415, and 2416.

Eric

Matchlock · 2nd May 2012, 03:53 PM

Hi Eric,

I am sad to hear this, though it was just another version of the same old story.

I am sure you have doing a lot better with the stuff you are collecting now, and I have noticed Jim commenting on your espada ancha!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 2nd May 2012, 08:53 PM

Another Katzbalger copy, 19th c., in North Italian early-16th c. style.

It is in the Tojhusmuseet Copenhagen, and an almost identical item is in a German private collection which has been published in a monography.

m

cornelistromp · 3rd May 2012, 07:15 AM

from the sale; the Karsten Klingbeil collection.
attributed to the 19thC.

cornelistromp · 3rd May 2012, 07:35 AM

to make life easy, a probably 19th century katzbalger sold as a 16th century one by Sothebys. and a probably 16th century katzbalger sold as 19th century by Czerny (black background).

fernando · 3rd May 2012, 12:19 PM

Amazing

.
If you haven't mentioned the black background detail, i would have inferred the other way round

.
Not knowing is like not seeing

.

Matchlock · 3rd May 2012, 06:06 PM

Actually, this one was found to be absolutely original by my friend. He had known it for more than twenty years when it was in a North German collection, still heavily patinated but not for sale, not even for 20,000 Deutschmark.

20 years later, he recognized it at once at Czerny's though it got cleaned meanwhile, and he got it extremely cheap because nobody would believe!

Best,
m

elfina · 4th May 2012, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Amazing

.
If you haven't mentioned the black background detail, i would have inferred the other way round

.
Not knowing is like not seeing

.

I totally agree with you!! Does anybody know why Czerny mistakenly identified this 16th century sword as 19th century in terms of specifics, i.e. to Czerny's specialist the hilt appeared suspicious, the blade was uncharacteristic, etc.?

2nd May 2012, 08:53 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Another Katzbalger copy, 19th c., in North Italian early-16th c. style. It is in the Tojhusmuseet Copenhagen, and an almost identical item is in a German private collection which has been published in a monography. m Attached Images

3rd May 2012, 07:15 AM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	from the sale; the Karsten Klingbeil collection. attributed to the 19thC. Attached Images

3rd May 2012, 07:35 AM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	to make life easy, a probably 19th century katzbalger sold as a 16th century one by Sothebys. and a probably 16th century katzbalger sold as 19th century by Czerny (black background). Attached Images

3rd May 2012, 06:06 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Actually, this one was found to be absolutely original by my friend. He had known it for more than twenty years when it was in a North German collection, still heavily patinated but not for sale, not even for 20,000 Deutschmark. 20 years later, he recognized it at once at Czerny's though it got cleaned meanwhile, and he got it extremely cheap because nobody would believe! Best, m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 3rd May 2012 at 07:49 PM.

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2nd May 2012, 05:19 AM	#1
elfina Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 12	Thanks for your reply, Michael! Actually, my lack of expertise on katzbalgers and other 16th century swords has already cost me a lot of money. About eight years ago I purchased what was purportedly a genuine katzbalger from a dealer (now deceased) who shall go nameless. I found out through Bonhams (I think it was Bonhams and Butterfields then) it was a fake as were the bastard sword, war hammer, and two handed sword I also bought from this dealer (some of the items were not strictly fakes apparently; rather, they were Victorian copies, though the dealer described them as genuine originals). I ended up disposing of all of them through Bonhams in their San Francisco sale of June 29, 2005. If you have a copy of this catalog, the four items I mentioned are on page 79: 2413, 2414, 2415, and 2416. Eric

2nd May 2012, 03:53 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Eric, I am sad to hear this, though it was just another version of the same old story. I am sure you have doing a lot better with the stuff you are collecting now, and I have noticed Jim commenting on your espada ancha! Best, Michael

3rd May 2012, 12:19 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Amazing . If you haven't mentioned the black background detail, i would have inferred the other way round . Not knowing is like not seeing .