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17th April 2012, 09:02 AM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chania Crete Greece
Posts: 511
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what a fantastic find!
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17th April 2012, 10:13 PM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 129
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I don`t believe that the dagger in the Philadelphia Museum dates as late as 1520-1530. It could well belong to the 15th century. That the twisted grip was in use much earlier, can be seen on the attached detail photo of a painting in an Austrian collection, dated 1425, with a rondel dagger with a spirally twisted grip.
Best Last edited by Swordfish; 18th April 2012 at 09:40 AM. |
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17th April 2012, 10:29 PM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 129
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Another painting, dated1469, with a dagger with twisted grip.
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17th April 2012, 10:33 PM
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#4 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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What remains still as a solid basis of dating the Philly dagger is the symmetric Renaissance-style washer.
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17th April 2012, 11:02 PM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 129
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This is not a Renaissance style! Gothic stylistic elements are symmetric in at least one axis or two. Compare a gothic trefoil or quatrefoil. The lower front blank of gothic chests, especially of South German origin, is cut out in a similar shape as the sides of this washer.
See attached photo of a chest dated by dendrochronology c.1375 Additional a late gothic chest lock, with an identical detail, but reversed. Therefore this washer is clearly of Gothic style ! Best Last edited by Swordfish; 18th April 2012 at 05:39 PM. |
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18th April 2012, 07:22 AM
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#6 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,060
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I believe the majority of all the I type disk hilted daggers can be dated between 1350-1450.
cf Seitz blankwaffen p 201 Dagger 3. 1350-1400 cf Jan Piet Puype Harm Stevens A&A of knights and landknechts p172/173 no45, the disk of this dagger has a 90 degree bent guard plate with lobed borders, facts such as the Lek dagger. see pictures attached 1400-1450 cf Scheider&StuberGrifwaffen 1 ill.no 415-432 cf Wegeli Inventar der waffensammlung.. Museum in Bern p286 dagger 1091. cf Robert Wilkinson Antique weapons and armour p 140 rondel dagger 2 1440-1450, this one has a similar washer as the phil dagger placed at the grip,can this shape be a crossflower? see pictures best, Last edited by cornelistromp; 18th April 2012 at 08:04 AM. |
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19th April 2012, 06:24 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
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Excellent. So was wrong to attribute the Philadelphia dagger to the late 1400s-early 1500s?
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