Jamdhar katari - a theory

Rick · 14th April 2012, 04:14 AM

I'm not seeing the connection between the two .

Stan S. · 14th April 2012, 05:08 AM

Maybe there is no connection after all... But consider this:

1. Older jamdhar katari were often cast in one piece just like a northern version of a katar

2. "Newer" versions, lets say from the 19th century onward, seem to be composite pieces where a tang-less blade is secured to the hilt with rivets - much like a katar with a sword tip blade

3. Thin metal grip of jamdhar katari features structures similar to the ones found on the grips of many katars. Their main function in all cases is without a doubt to prevent the hand from slipping from a thin grip, but it's peculiar that it is found on both jamdhars and katars

4. A long slender pommel and crossguard on jamdhar katari is designed to lock the wrist. The same feature is almost always present in katars in the form of the side bars

5. Based on teh above, if you can visualize taking a katar and reversing the blade where it is positioned as it would be on a typical dagger, you get jamdhar katari. This also seems to work in reverse. The shape of the blade is somewhat different (except on the old versions of jamdhar katari that feature a straight triangular blade) but otherwise they are similar

Once again, this is just a thought. There may be no connection what so ever, or maybe parituclar styles of these two knives are dictated by simple aesthetics of the people that used them. And being that these people intermingled in the same region, it could be that both forms developed independantly but following some common principle unknown to us.

Emanuel · 14th April 2012, 06:18 AM

Here is the old thread I spoke of, Jens' Jamdhar/katar why do we call it a katar?. I recall that the A’in-i-Akbari is actually available online somewhere and I had downloaded a copy, I will look for it.

In regards to the characteristic handle bar, I seem to recall certain old south Indian rapiers and swords with identical handles (see Elgood's Hindu Arms and Ritual: Arms and Armour from India 1400-1865, don't have it with me so can't say which pages).

Emanuel

Marcus · 28th July 2016, 04:33 PM

I think this piece is the very one illustrated in Anthony Tirri's, Islamic Weapons, Maghrib to Mogul. I bought it from Oriental Arms.

Jens Nordlunde · 28th July 2016, 09:41 PM

I once researched the origin of the katar, and took it back to 10th century of Orissa. Search for How Old is the Katar?
I dont think it has anythimg to do with the knife in question I am sorry to say.

ariel · 29th July 2016, 12:06 AM

I have to agree with Jens.

Nothing in common, except for the use of words with a Sanskrit root " kut, kat" relating to cutting, slashing, slicing etc. Omani Kattara, a long-bladed weapon, having nothing in common technically with either of the daggers discussed here, is sharing the same root with them. A Roma word kat means scissors: and Gypsies stem from India.

I think we are not talking about anything structural, engineering etc: I think it is just philology.

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2016, 06:37 PM

Jens is right.....no similarity (obviously), mostly the only connection is via the usual 'name game' that so predisposes so many collectors.

Marcus · 28th July 2016, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Indeed this is a textbook example!

Figure 216A, page 296

mariusgmioc · 28th July 2016, 11:09 PM

In my opinion there is absolutely no similarity at all.
Completely different hilts, completely different gripping styles and completely different blade orientation.
Well, they are about as similar as Pata sword is to a Khanda...
But that's just my opinion of course.

PS: My opinion and Jens'.

28th July 2016, 04:33 PM	#4
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Text book example I think this piece is the very one illustrated in Anthony Tirri's, Islamic Weapons, Maghrib to Mogul. I bought it from Oriental Arms. Attached Images

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14th April 2012, 04:14 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	I'm not seeing the connection between the two .

14th April 2012, 05:08 AM	#2
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Maybe there is no connection after all... But consider this: 1. Older jamdhar katari were often cast in one piece just like a northern version of a katar 2. "Newer" versions, lets say from the 19th century onward, seem to be composite pieces where a tang-less blade is secured to the hilt with rivets - much like a katar with a sword tip blade 3. Thin metal grip of jamdhar katari features structures similar to the ones found on the grips of many katars. Their main function in all cases is without a doubt to prevent the hand from slipping from a thin grip, but it's peculiar that it is found on both jamdhars and katars 4. A long slender pommel and crossguard on jamdhar katari is designed to lock the wrist. The same feature is almost always present in katars in the form of the side bars 5. Based on teh above, if you can visualize taking a katar and reversing the blade where it is positioned as it would be on a typical dagger, you get jamdhar katari. This also seems to work in reverse. The shape of the blade is somewhat different (except on the old versions of jamdhar katari that feature a straight triangular blade) but otherwise they are similar Once again, this is just a thought. There may be no connection what so ever, or maybe parituclar styles of these two knives are dictated by simple aesthetics of the people that used them. And being that these people intermingled in the same region, it could be that both forms developed independantly but following some common principle unknown to us.

14th April 2012, 06:18 AM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Here is the old thread I spoke of, Jens' Jamdhar/katar why do we call it a katar?. I recall that the A’in-i-Akbari is actually available online somewhere and I had downloaded a copy, I will look for it. In regards to the characteristic handle bar, I seem to recall certain old south Indian rapiers and swords with identical handles (see Elgood's Hindu Arms and Ritual: Arms and Armour from India 1400-1865, don't have it with me so can't say which pages). Emanuel

28th July 2016, 09:41 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I once researched the origin of the katar, and took it back to 10th century of Orissa. Search for How Old is the Katar? I dont think it has anythimg to do with the knife in question I am sorry to say.

29th July 2016, 12:06 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have to agree with Jens. Nothing in common, except for the use of words with a Sanskrit root " kut, kat" relating to cutting, slashing, slicing etc. Omani Kattara, a long-bladed weapon, having nothing in common technically with either of the daggers discussed here, is sharing the same root with them. A Roma word kat means scissors: and Gypsies stem from India. I think we are not talking about anything structural, engineering etc: I think it is just philology.

29th July 2016, 06:37 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,660	Jens is right.....no similarity (obviously), mostly the only connection is via the usual 'name game' that so predisposes so many collectors.

28th July 2016, 11:09 PM	#9
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,912	In my opinion there is absolutely no similarity at all. Completely different hilts, completely different gripping styles and completely different blade orientation. Well, they are about as similar as Pata sword is to a Khanda... But that's just my opinion of course. PS: My opinion and Jens'.