Strange Oriental sword

Rick · 26th August 2005, 03:53 PM

To me it looks like something that might have been offered for sale to a GI during the post war American occupation of Japan .

Possibly a re-mounted Japanese war prize :
http://tinyurl.com/c5m3x

Perhaps even the ultimate in irony right down to the blued blade ; 1917 model US Navy cutlass :

http://tinyurl.com/ajfeg

I wonder if the new owner will post pics of it here ?

Andrew · 26th August 2005, 04:06 PM

This looks like an extremely rare and valuable sword. There's a similar one for sale here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1079

Rick · 26th August 2005, 04:18 PM

I see you survived Katrina Andrew .

Andrew · 27th August 2005, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I see you survived Katrina Andrew .

We're all good, Rick.

Internet access is spotty, though.

fearn · 27th August 2005, 04:41 AM

Good to hear Andrew.

Rick,

You mean that I don't get to read you and Henk arguing for two pages just to settle that bet?

I'm soooooooooo disappointed

F

Ian · 27th August 2005, 06:02 AM

as we delve deeper into the relationship between the Dutch klewang and the M1917 US Cutlass.

It appears that the Dutch klewang debuted in 1898, and that the M1917 US Cutlass copied the blade style exactly. There is even a M1941 US Cutlass that used the same cut out hilt as found on the Dutch version, and is indistinguishable from it.

A helpful, but brief article on these swords, by Rick Wagner can be found here http://www.angelfire.com/wa/swordcollector/cutlass.html and it has some relevance to the present discussion in that it describes the use of Dutch klewang by occupying Japanese forces during WWII.

Who wins the debate? Well I guess Henk does, because the US cutlass is a copy of the Dutch klewang, so all versions are derivative of the original.

BTW, our own Carter Rila wrote an article on the Dutch klewang and its adoption by the US in 1917.

Ian.

Henk · 27th August 2005, 09:04 AM

fearn · 26th August 2005, 04:27 PM

Hi Andrew,

Neat link, but I'm not sure I agree. The one you linked to is definitely Chinese. I'm not so sure about this one.

My inexpert diagnosis is that

a) it's a western saber blade of some sort, as Ariel suggested. The clip tip and deep fuller really don't look Chinese.

b) someone (not necessarily Chinese!) riveted a bone handle to it. Thing is, I could do a handle decoration similar to that with a soldering iron. While I agree that it's a Chinese theme, the lack of any Chinese fittings on the blade should be sending up warning flags. I don't know of any Chinese swords where the blade is riveted to the handle, either.

My suggestion is that this was someone's art project, either from Europe or the US. It's certainly cool as art, but that's as far as I would go.

Since "dhaguy" bought it, I wonder which of the "dhafia" will be able to enlighten us on this blade?

F

not2sharp · 26th August 2005, 04:52 PM

That is a US model 1917 cutlass remounted with a decorated bone handle. These swords were still standard equipment on older ships during WWII.

You can see pictures of original examples here:
http://arms2armor.com/Swords/1917var1.htm

n2s

Ferguson · 26th August 2005, 05:57 PM

The hilt looks like it's held on with roll pins. The spring type shaped like a "C". Not even rivets.

Steve

fearn · 26th August 2005, 06:51 PM

Excellent point, Ferguson. Here's another question: do roll pins give us a clue as to who assembled this weapon?

F

Henk · 26th August 2005, 09:07 PM

Ian is right. It is a KNIL-sabre, used by the dutch army in Indonesia. It is not a US cutlass.

I have one too. The pictures are not great. But this is how the original sabre looks like.

26th August 2005, 03:53 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	To me it looks like something that might have been offered for sale to a GI during the post war American occupation of Japan . Possibly a re-mounted Japanese war prize : http://tinyurl.com/c5m3x Perhaps even the ultimate in irony right down to the blued blade ; 1917 model US Navy cutlass : http://tinyurl.com/ajfeg I wonder if the new owner will post pics of it here ? Last edited by Rick; 26th August 2005 at 04:16 PM. Reason: More info

27th August 2005, 06:02 AM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	The plot thickens ... as we delve deeper into the relationship between the Dutch klewang and the M1917 US Cutlass. It appears that the Dutch klewang debuted in 1898, and that the M1917 US Cutlass copied the blade style exactly. There is even a M1941 US Cutlass that used the same cut out hilt as found on the Dutch version, and is indistinguishable from it. A helpful, but brief article on these swords, by Rick Wagner can be found here http://www.angelfire.com/wa/swordcollector/cutlass.html and it has some relevance to the present discussion in that it describes the use of Dutch klewang by occupying Japanese forces during WWII. Who wins the debate? Well I guess Henk does, because the US cutlass is a copy of the Dutch klewang, so all versions are derivative of the original. BTW, our own Carter Rila wrote an article on the Dutch klewang and its adoption by the US in 1917. Ian.

26th August 2005, 05:57 PM	#10
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	The hilt looks like it's held on with roll pins. The spring type shaped like a "C". Not even rivets. Steve Attached Images

26th August 2005, 09:07 PM	#12
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Ian is right. It is a KNIL-sabre, used by the dutch army in Indonesia. It is not a US cutlass. I have one too. The pictures are not great. But this is how the original sabre looks like. Attached Images

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26th August 2005, 04:06 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	This looks like an extremely rare and valuable sword. There's a similar one for sale here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1079

26th August 2005, 04:18 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I see you survived Katrina Andrew .

27th August 2005, 04:41 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Good to hear Andrew. Rick, You mean that I don't get to read you and Henk arguing for two pages just to settle that bet? I'm soooooooooo disappointed F

27th August 2005, 09:04 AM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209

26th August 2005, 04:27 PM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Andrew, Neat link, but I'm not sure I agree. The one you linked to is definitely Chinese. I'm not so sure about this one. My inexpert diagnosis is that a) it's a western saber blade of some sort, as Ariel suggested. The clip tip and deep fuller really don't look Chinese. b) someone (not necessarily Chinese!) riveted a bone handle to it. Thing is, I could do a handle decoration similar to that with a soldering iron. While I agree that it's a Chinese theme, the lack of any Chinese fittings on the blade should be sending up warning flags. I don't know of any Chinese swords where the blade is riveted to the handle, either. My suggestion is that this was someone's art project, either from Europe or the US. It's certainly cool as art, but that's as far as I would go. Since "dhaguy" bought it, I wonder which of the "dhafia" will be able to enlighten us on this blade? F

26th August 2005, 04:52 PM	#9
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	That is a US model 1917 cutlass remounted with a decorated bone handle. These swords were still standard equipment on older ships during WWII. You can see pictures of original examples here: http://arms2armor.com/Swords/1917var1.htm n2s

26th August 2005, 06:51 PM	#11
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Excellent point, Ferguson. Here's another question: do roll pins give us a clue as to who assembled this weapon? F