Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent points Iain! and I need to use these concise methods of asserting key points that you guys have well established as effective in moving forward with this complex discussion. However, old dog...'new', or better , different, tricks Its the writer in me

I would like to note first of all that this discussion is an absolute gift, as even in the 90s, the subject of Omani swords was a complete mystery, and these were anomalies among ethnographic weapons. Even Elgood in writing his book on Arabian weapons (1994) noted that the history and origins of these swords were unclear, and even asking Omani personages about them when he was in Arabia researching gave no clear answers. I recall that even when one of these cylindrical hilt swords turned up (including one I obtained) it was a major event among collectors, and these were considered 'rare'. In recent reading on Arabian history, Oman is scarcely mentioned as far as I could find in the references I used. It is mentioned how difficult it was for anyone to get in there, and these were prominant figures in the academic world.

What I do know is that the Omani swords I saw around those times, including the one I had, seemed invariably to have Solingen 'type' blades. I also had a pata which had a blade of 'Solingen' type ,again, with the three central fullers and the often seen cosmological array in motif with sun, moon and stars. This seemed to of course suggest that the blades entering the Red Sea trade were indeed filtering into North Africa for kaskaras and takoubas as well as into Ethiopia, Arabia and to trade moving toward India and the western trade centers there.

Concerning the use of the familiar markings, in this case particularly the 'Passau wolf'. As has long been well established, these highly stylized zoomorphic marks, usually chiselled free form, when entering other cultures departed thier original intent as quality oriented guild marks. They assimilated quite understandably into the native parlance common to the spectrum of beliefs or perceptions held in those contexts. Typically these were magical or talismanic beliefs believed to represent power transmitted to the blade and the user. We have seen many examples of these kinds of interpretations with the various markings found on kaskara and takouba blades which commonly are described in native context, and are often native applied renderings of the long established repertoire of makings seen on European blades generations before. It is also is known that in many cases, certain makers would adopt certain markings, it was not necessarily a universal or random circumstance. Some makers actually had stamps used rather than the freestyle renderings, especially in the case of the 'dukari' or half moons which were indeed practically universal, however thier exact meanings could have wide interpretation.

In the case of the Omani sayfs, I personally believe that there was at some time in earlier years at least some presence of European blades, and while they of course would have been present on combat oriented swords, even if the pageantry profiled weapons were indeed a separate type weapon, at least some makers may have added them. If presuming that the war dance was performed by veteran warriors, it would stand to reason that these kinds of markings would be considered symbolic in terms of valorious service, and not necessarily in the same parlance as perceived on the combat blades.

With the recent changes in opening the long restricted boundaries in Oman, and the clearly described advent of burgeoning commercial trade with particular respect to weapons, it seems that the traditional aspects of these weapons have been dramatically clouded by those activities. I would presume that there would be wide variation in choice of blade types as well as adoption of select markings of as many interpretations as would be found in any modern commercial setting. There are of course going to be the usual ranges of skill, knowledge and resources of makers producing the products as well. It seems clear, as Iain has noted, that modern examples of these blades which have probably as Ibrahiim has asserted been produced locally for decades, if not even the last hundred years, were probably made for pageantry as the use of firearms had placed the sword in secondary status as a weapon in combat.
It seems with that respect, much as in North Africa, certain makers whose families had long standing following of traditions in producing blades might use these venerable markings while others with less distinct ties might not include them. It is the same with fullering, blade forms etc. these characteristics would follow practices of the maker maintaining his own traditions.

There you have it, concisely itemized oh well.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ Your post is key to the understanding of Oman as a virtually closed country until about 1970.

A point that I should clear up is on the wolf view by Omanis who routinely used wolf skin on the abu futtila butt next to the cheek as opposed to their reaction to wolf attacks on their livestock (especially the Bedu) where the wolf would be ruthlessly hunted and once caught its head would be stuck on a pole to ward off other "evil influences"...In the case of inclusion on weapons and the "Passau Woolf" it seems clear that it is a talisman.

The Omani people will have had a lot of contact through meeting a lot of English (and French and other nationalities) with swords no doubt some of which had Passau Woolf marks and whereas they would not neccessarily have adopted the weapons they could easily have copied the mark.. They did the same with Raj Crown marks..It is pertinent to point out that the most efficient tried and tested weapons on the doorstep that they must have seen almost daily were the Indian Hindu dynasty weapons stretching back far into history... and how many of those extremely varied weapons were copied into the Omani armoury... None! bar the Hyderabadi shamshir and only because of the vast and growing importance of the Khojas in Muscat and that was essentially a court sword. The only thing they ever copied off an Indain sword was the Raj Crown... and they still do in Ras Al Khaimah.

The problem inherrent with asking Omani people anything is the syndrome of them agreeing to anything you want to tell them or ask them about ~which is only their polite way of dealing with something they dont know the answer to... Sometimes the answer to a how old is this ? sort of querry is limited to their own experience or that of their father or grandfathers time scale... How old is this Old Omani Battle Sword... 150 years, 80 years depending on who they think owned it...This is particularly when dealing with older people, who after all, had zero education and most stuff they know arrived in their knowledge base by myth legend or tradition... passed down through the ages embroidered and changed to suit the wind direction..

Your well placed note on stamps and passau wolf comments reminds me how turbulent this subject can get as I have never seen a European stamp on a flexible dancing sword except in the case of one dodgey blade with european numbers on it.. all the other stamps are Arabian. Naturally I have to sideline swords that I know have been Omani hilted such as the Solingen combo sword earlier # 229; top picture.

As we cruise toward 10,000 hits on this thread I still see some interesting areas which need probing as to date; no one has pin pointed the production centre of the old or new Sayfs and work needs polishing on the weird blades at my earlier hypothesis and if there are any Schiavonas in the mixture... etc

I need to get into a couple of Museums and also examine data at the Funoon centre to see if clarity on dates can be obtained.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Ibrahiim, excellent points and I think that the positions and observations are presenting great material to be considered as we move forward. We are still far from conclusions but the progress is great.

On the schiavona, there were of course variants, and while most I have seen were backswords, but some were broadswords. It is worthy of note that the schiavona itself was around before the hilt became fully developed, and again this is a term which became associated primarily with the baskethilt form. We know that anumber of blades were coming in from Italy into the Red Sea trade, but I think that these were powerfully usurped by the German blades in the 19th century.

I have been looking into Yucel in trying to understand more on the Abbasid swords which are believed to be the ancestor of the old Omani sayf, and found that the earliest surviving example of these is one attributed to Caliph Mu'awiya ibn Abi Sufyan, the first Umayyad caliph (reigned 41-60 hijral, 661-680 AD). This blade is shown in plate 24, described p.56, but the illustrations are not very good.

On p.54, it is noted that virtually nothing is known about the nature of Abbasid and Umayyad hilts, quillon blocks and scabbards, but of course the blades are represented among the swords in Istanbul. The blades were without fullers, and thicken at the center, which would I believe approximate the 'wing shape' you describe, and I think may be described as lenticular.

I am curious about the Omani old sayf, and whether there are examples of these hilts which are being suggested to have remained in situ since the 751AD date and if possibly somewhere in Oman. I cannot remember in earlier discussion whether we had determined if an Abbasid hilt had been located which conforms to the old Omani sayf hilt, naturally subsequent to Yucels's outstanding work in 2001. He unfortunately passed away that same year.

As always, adding material to be considered in the course of our discussions here.

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you very much Ibrahiim, excellent points and I think that the positions and observations are presenting great material to be considered as we move forward. We are still far from conclusions but the progress is great.

On the schiavona, there were of course variants, and while most I have seen were backswords, but some were broadswords. It is worthy of note that the schiavona itself was around before the hilt became fully developed, and again this is a term which became associated primarily with the baskethilt form. We know that anumber of blades were coming in from Italy into the Red Sea trade, but I think that these were powerfully usurped by the German blades in the 19th century.

I have been looking into Yucel in trying to understand more on the Abbasid swords which are believed to be the ancestor of the old Omani sayf, and found that the earliest surviving example of these is one attributed to Caliph Mu'awiya ibn Abi Sufyan, the first Umayyad caliph (reigned 41-60 hijral, 661-680 AD). This blade is shown in plate 24, described p.56, but the illustrations are not very good.

On p.54, it is noted that virtually nothing is known about the nature of Abbasid and Umayyad hilts, quillon blocks and scabbards, but of course the blades are represented among the swords in Istanbul. The blades were without fullers, and thicken at the center, which would I believe approximate the 'wing shape' you describe, and I think may be described as lenticular.

I am curious about the Omani old sayf, and whether there are examples of these hilts which are being suggested to have remained in situ since the 751AD date and if possibly somewhere in Oman. I cannot remember in earlier discussion whether we had determined if an Abbasid hilt had been located which conforms to the old Omani sayf hilt, naturally subsequent to Yucels's outstanding work in 2001. He unfortunately passed away that same year.

As always, adding material to be considered in the course of our discussions here.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ You may recall the #5 post on this thread where a Topkapi sword (which may on reflection be either in the Topkapi or the Istanbul military museaum or both and being Abbasid was compared favourably with the Old Omani Battlesword in 11 categories including similarities in hilt construction but certainly not with the Islamic Arched Pommel.. nor the turned down quillons but almost everything else including blade profile.
It is key to the early Ibn Julanda theory backed by the Funoon combined with the in situ frozen in time in Oman concept that the entire weapon emerges. In fact I chose the 751 date as an honorary point since it is likely that the weapon emerged sometime before and copied largely from the Abassiid and the earlier date of 620 has been considered with the first Islamic movement however as Ibn Julanda was the first Ibathi Immam 751 has been selected bearing in mind the likelihood of the hilt being virtuslly or potentially heraldic in nature which in itself would rock the foundations of heraldic symbols which insist rather on shields as being the objects of transmition. Not only is the Pommel the shape of the Abbasiid Islamic Arch..(not to be confused by later arches nor later (Islamic)battle helmets which didn't exist in the mid 8th C) but the Minarette form is also reflected in the hilt on earlier examples. I have placed several of these in private collections with the dots on the blades ... both in the blade tip and at the throat in single dots and others with a tripple dot at the riccaso.

The Umayyis swords and hilts are indeed difficult to trace as none exist.. as far as I know.

Work is ongoing with the term Sayf Yamaani though I get blank looks when I speak about the place near Iski, Nizwa and being the ancient old quarter called "Yemen" and likely to have been populated in about the 1st to 3rdC ad from the broken dam in The Yemen called Mehrib Dam and its corresponding exodus of many tribes to Oman (for Nizwa in particular).

We also know that the entire area of Yemen southern Oman and parts of Africa at the horn were called an as one throw away term The Yemen and the African Coast at the horn is often called the Yemen on old maps..

Nizwa region fits the bill because of its prowess in Copper and Iron smelting and because of the early bellows technique employed there. Of course that is not proven and other places may be responsible like Hadramaut or even Sri Lanka with advanced blown air furnaces in use early.

The very nature of an isolated religious grouping like Ibathism underscores the peculiar syndrome of this weapons isolation. Except for a small outpost of the same sect in North Africa the country was quite its own citadel and standing alone. After all; the point of the Abbasiid garrisons sent from Iraq was to primarily suppress the Omanis in that regard and the later raids by the Wahhabis was similarly inspired ( in 1865 they sacked Sur) though eventually that subsided though not without a fight. Coincidentally the seat of the Ibathi sects power remained at Nizwa down the ages.. making the conclusion perhaps easy to draw on the Sayf Yamaanis birthplace.. However, that is, as yet not proven.

One area neglected so far is the huge influence exerted by merchants from the largest influential group... India. In the Indian ocean they were called Banyans and if trade were to be conducted it was the Banyans doing it, often without the see saw politics and nonsense between Oman, France and Britain which at the best of times was farcical.


I have just read an extraordinary article on www.jrpeterson.net which has some very interesting background on outsider groups integrating eventually into Oman and snippets on Zuttoot, Khojas, Baluchi and other important fringe set ups with mention of sword manufacturing in one anecdote..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Reference note for Forum library.
From http://www.thenational.ae/news/.../w...g-trade-in-rak
Anecdotal Evidence; The Omani Sayf; Dancing Swords Only.

Quote "RAS AL KHAIMAH // In the markets of the old town, swords are easily available and readily sold to mountain tribesmen.

"All Shehhi [tribesmen] should have swords," said Azziz al Shehhi, 22. "It's nice for dancing, not for fighting. These are for gifts, for celebrations."
Mr al Shehhi owns four swords, four traditional knives and two rifles that belonged to his father. But the party favourite was always the sword, an essential for any mountain celebration, he said.

Strong swordsmanship is the mark of a good wedding for mountain tribes like the Shehhu and Habus. Swords are not raised in combat, but thrown metres in the air and then caught.

The swords are forged in the workshops of the old RAK market, many of which have operated for more than three decades.
Shopkeepers must be licensed to sell swords, but are not required to keep records of how many they sell or to whom.
They make them according to demand. Some months they may sell only one or two, and other months they will sell dozens, especially in the summer wedding season.

Swords can be bought in glass cases as gifts and are a traditional reward at sporting events such as camel races. More often they are sold as an accessory for weddings, along with the canes and the yerz, a tribal axe.
Swords are sold blunt so men can catch them while dancing, but can be easily sharpened. Honing usually comes at the behest of elders, who want swords sharpened to a fine edge to honour their forefathers.
Zahee Ahmed, 28, of Pakistan, sells to tribesmen, sheikhs and tourists, as well as to shops in Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah. He said he had yet to hear of any case of swords being used as a weapon. "It's not dangerous," said Mr Ahmed. "We make them for celebration, not for killing. This is not for fighting, it is only for culture. The man is crazy if he will fight."
There is no age requirement on who can buy a sword, but some stores will only sell to Emiratis.

For many years, bargain hunters would often skip the markets of old RAK and buy from the family of Charchambi Daad Mohammed, a Baluchi axe and sword maker who crafted the weapons in his house.
Until last year, he roamed the streets of the Nakheel market with a bundle of swords and axes under his arm to be sold to whoever had the cash.
The swords business got a boost last December after Fujairah's first annual Al Saif Traditional Sword Competition, in which TV viewers and audience members voted by SMS for their favourite sword dancer.
RAK swordsmiths reported a sharp rise in demand for a month afterwards". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.