Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Well hey Omani's turned out to like european blades eventually?:P

I like them, dont think they are european made personally but am no expert in the field. I think Omani's, like most Arabs, they have valued foreign blades and have imported + copied them. The pictures you add support that more then anything.

Salaams A.alnakkas Ah well there you have it.

With the help of the Forum we have torn apart the myth on straight flexible Omani Sayf and rightly placed the Old Omani Battle Sayf into a corrected timeframe. The latter weapon regarded by many(with no proof) as variably 10th, 12th, 16th century with varying degrees of guess and error mixed. Some thought it Portuguese which would have placed it in the circa 1500 age bracket. No one had even heard of "The Funoon" . Ibn Jalanda... whos that? The Abbasids? Greek influence? Examples in the Topkapi Museum? Weapon freeze? Gradually the lid has been blown off...off that and the details about the straight flexible dancing sword "The Omani Sayf"... which has no European source whatsoever mainly because it isn't technically a fighting sword but a Religio-National Icon.

Oman did indeed also favour tasty curved swords and the Persian Shamshir, The Zanzibari Nimcha and the Karabela spring to mind where they are termed Kattara (though no one knows why?) in Oman.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Most interesting developments here with the mystery of German blade presence in these Omani swords, whether original trade blades or examples copied by Omani artisans. First of all, the name STAMM was a well established sword blade producing family there, indeed even slightly earlier than the 17th century, the earliest being Clemens Stamm (1580-1610, listed in Bezdek p.154). Others were Peter (1680-1700, who used the marking depicting Jonah and the whale); Abraham (1764-1770); Wilhelm (1778-1820).
There is indeed a pata listed in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour", #217) with a blade by M.Stamm (captioned by Pant as Abraham Stamm, Solingen, 17th c.). It is well known that the Mahrattas heavily imported blades for thier swords in these times, highly favoring German blades over the British ones. German blades entered these areas by the thousands, presumably the source of the 'Alemani' term for swords carrying them (usually sabres).

While unclear whether the '1708' on this blade is indeed a date, or perhaps one of the many variations on so called magical numbers is hard to guage.
As indicated, the use of these mystical numbers such as the '1616' on the hollowed smallsword blade (clearly 18th century as per the form) and the name 'Sahagom' which was a 'brand' used by Solingen on blades headed for Continental markets, this could correspond to the 17th century attribution for Stamm. Whatever the case, and whichever Stamm might have been the maker, this is certainly a 17th century German blade.

The 'PDKG' is less attributable, and these kinds of four letter monograms are found in numerous variations. In the case of Hungarian sabres, typically made in Styria or Italy but of course Germany as well, the letters 'IPZD' are a recurring combination. It is often believed that these groupings which exceed the typical two letters presumably initials, may well be acrostics for phrases or slogans etc.
As your research has shown, the 'PDKG' has been found on other apparantly Solingen sourced blades of the 18th century, one to European markets and the other to India, which again, we know was receiving German blades in the 18th century, these combinations seem identifiable to Solingen.

As has been well supposed, German blades were well represented in Arabian regions as well as enrepots throughout these trade networks through the 17th and probably into 20th century.

Excellent examples shown and outstanding research!!!! You really have this topic moving Ibrahiim, nicely done, thank you.

All the very best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Most interesting developments here with the mystery of German blade presence in these Omani swords, whether original trade blades or examples copied by Omani artisans. First of all, the name STAMM was a well established sword blade producing family there, indeed even slightly earlier than the 17th century, the earliest being Clemens Stamm (1580-1610, listed in Bezdek p.154). Others were Peter (1680-1700, who used the marking depicting Jonah and the whale); Abraham (1764-1770); Wilhelm (1778-1820).
There is indeed a pata listed in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour", #217) with a blade by M.Stamm (captioned by Pant as Abraham Stamm, Solingen, 17th c.). It is well known that the Mahrattas heavily imported blades for thier swords in these times, highly favoring German blades over the British ones. German blades entered these areas by the thousands, presumably the source of the 'Alemani' term for swords carrying them (usually sabres).

While unclear whether the '1708' on this blade is indeed a date, or perhaps one of the many variations on so called magical numbers is hard to guage.
As indicated, the use of these mystical numbers such as the '1616' on the hollowed smallsword blade (clearly 18th century as per the form) and the name 'Sahagom' which was a 'brand' used by Solingen on blades headed for Continental markets, this could correspond to the 17th century attribution for Stamm. Whatever the case, and whichever Stamm might have been the maker, this is certainly a 17th century German blade.

The 'PDKG' is less attributable, and these kinds of four letter monograms are found in numerous variations. In the case of Hungarian sabres, typically made in Styria or Italy but of course Germany as well, the letters 'IPZD' are a recurring combination. It is often believed that these groupings which exceed the typical two letters presumably initials, may well be acrostics for phrases or slogans etc.
As your research has shown, the 'PDKG' has been found on other apparantly Solingen sourced blades of the 18th century, one to European markets and the other to India, which again, we know was receiving German blades in the 18th century, these combinations seem identifiable to Solingen.

As has been well supposed, German blades were well represented in Arabian regions as well as enrepots throughout these trade networks through the 17th and probably into 20th century.

Excellent examples shown and outstanding research!!!! You really have this topic moving Ibrahiim, nicely done, thank you.

All the very best,
Jim

Salaams Jim... Brilliant detail and bringing on the STAMM info is just outstanding thanks... On the date I just need to clarify that it isnt a date ... it looked like one and the owner was adamant that it was ... indeed it looks like 1708 but when you invert it ... IT READS SOLI Then looking closely you will see a capital N and some more undepherible caps...following that... thus obviously SOLINGEN .

I have identified this shop as the hilt fixer on this old blade thus it is a blade coming in at a tangent and being reworked welded tang and pommel (Omanised)by this shop about 10 years ago according to them and the owner who I know coincidentally as a previous client in Buraimi.... and who walked in unexpectedly in Muscat which was amazing...

Your detail about the PDKG is also well received and I noted a london auction house which had other stamps the same... The stamp style of Gothic capitals seemed to point to German manufacture though I add that guardedly.

Your detail ;

Quote "As has been well supposed, German blades were well represented in Arabian regions as well as entrepots throughout these trade networks through the 17th and probably into 20th century".Unquote.

I still guard against since these are the only examples of these natures that I have seen in these formats. No others have cropped up. These are Omanised... as late as 10 years ago.

I therefore also guard against the supposition though look forward to upturning more evidence in the specific area of Old Omani Battle SAYF and Flexible Omani dancing SAYF trade blade replacements since actually we havent seen any yet.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.