Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

Your points are clear and I'm glad you are acknowledging the flexibility issue is driven by dance not combat needs. I think since you aren't sure of a timeline, that perhaps you are assigning this need to a far earlier period than necessary.

Do you have or have you examined a circa 18th century flexible long sayf blade? Pictures?

I think by assuming the flexibility requirement goes that far back you are removing the key evidence for the long form sayf.

Regarding if hilting a blade changes the ethnicity, I would say yes, because it means the sword was accepted into that ethnicity. Otherwise there is no way to include European blades into your Omani sayf definition at all - you have ruled them out with your criteria. That's why I would say I have a takouba with a European blade, the hilting turns it into a takouba and a sword of the Hausa/Tuareg/Fulani/whatever. Hilting is the process of adopting a blade locally.

Regarding fullers and marks:

On marks, there is no reason to make them to enhance the perceived value of the blade if the original European blades were not already in use and perceived as valuable. So if we have flexible blades with fake marks it clearly points out the fact that the original European blades were respected and desired locally - otherwise no reason to copy the marks. So I don't really care if the marks are fake or not, they wouldn't exist if Omanis were using European blades and associating the marks with quality. If there was no trade blade influence, you wouldn't find the marks at all, there would be no reason for Omani smiths to copy them. Are there marks on the short old sayf type in the same style? Not that I've ever seen, somehow and from somewhere the idea to start using blade marks arrived.

Fullers, the triple fuller configuration in conjunction with the half moon stamps (and these half moons have a face which I do not believe is a typical Islamic illustration?) are a very well known pattern. That it would appear in Oman, at roughly the same time period as the Sahel and other areas, in exactly the same pattern, without being directly related to the European imports, really seems to defy logic. Just too many coincidences. This matches up exactly with the examples I linked and you acknowledge are Omani.

I realize your skepticism has a sound base in having not found any European blades in swords that are Omani in your system, but I have to think this is only because you have set the criteria in your system in such a way that you will never find any because you are not counting the stiffer blades. We've already seen at least one example of how the tangs and long hilts are combined on trade blades.

The way you've structured the progression there is a hole in the transition from a pretty specific style of short sword to a long blade with some pretty striking characteristics which happen to line up perfectly with European blades found in the area, except for stiffness. Remove the reliance on having to say an Omani blade flexes to around 90 degrees (by the way do the short swords do this?) and you remove the hole and have a clear progression where elements of European trade blades were copied into a new Omani form that provided the flexibility needed for the dance.

I really just don't see how there is any other conclusion for fake wolf stamps, triple fullers with twin moon stamps and the like popping up in Omani swords, not to mention a switch to a sword length that matches up nicely with the European exports.

For me the issue is not in finding the mythical flexible long form sayf export blade from Europe, but in understanding why and how that form was developed locally and what influences led to the dramatic change in form.

As always, just some friendly ideas and comments.

All the best,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~ I agree with most of your post. You are correct in assuming my scepticism since I have not found a single piece of evidence that a European Trade Blade exists in Oman.

Much of the discussion revolves around what you say and is as yet largely unresolved. The important thing for me is to keep an open mind since there is such fragile evidence for local manufacture and even less scant clue as to the European Trade Blade import story.

Fake Stamps. The Muscat Museum insists that the woolf stamp on their 19th C Long Omani Sayf is fake. I believe it is . I have seen other fake stamps on the thick blade variants from what I believe is Yemeni/Saudia sword identical to the one shown in the Yemeni Military Museum. Faking blade marks is legion here... I would say the majority of swords here carry fake markings. As I say prestige and price are likely candidates. I show a swathe of fake marks on this thread Raj Crowns, God is Great, stars et al on #98... they are nearly all shoved on for show or to fake provenance or raise the price. Odd in its own right since thay are true Omani Swords but left to individual swordmakers they seem to think it makes the item more attractive (there is something in that from the cosmetic viewpoint). I handled a sword in Muscat Souk for which I have a photo and that too was a Red Sea job fake marked with the easily copied passau woolf. It only requires a decent chisel and a mallet and its about 15 small strikes to copy.. as you know the mark is quite randomly done even on originals so it is a cinch to copy..

Timescale. Naturally this is a vital question but is as yet not pinpointed, though, you will see quotes on this thread from European visitors mentioning the blades likeness to Scotish claymores...at the Hormus Garrison in the early 1800s etc. viz;

1.In 1878 a Mr Geary (editor of the Times of India) visited Muscat and wrote of the weapons he saw carried by locals ~ A favourite weapon is a straight broad two-handed sword, the sweep of which would take off a man's thigh or even cut him in two at the waist.The swordsmen carried over their shoulder small shields of rhinoceros horn 8 or 9 inches in diameter....

2.Captain James Welstead in 1835 at Jalaan Bani Bu Ali (on the Eastern edge of the Wahaybah) remarked on the Funoon, Razha, sword parade and dance that the blades of their swords are 3 feet in length, straight, thin, double edged and as sharp as a razor.

3.Mr Frazer who also visited Hormuz in 1821 (and Oman at the same time as Welstead in about 1835) described The Omani Garrison at Hormuz swords as similar to Scotish Broadswords and also described separately in Oman later the Ters buckler shields..


Flexibility of blade. Vital. Not flexible not Omani and must be spatulate tipped not pointed ~ To date I have not handled a stiff dancing blade (my terminology since I can see how lethal they are as fighting swords also). Old blades Sayf Yamani are completely stiff and pointed. Is it simply down to fashion that bendy blades took over...in a suggested broad timescale of say 150 years...and a new fighting and dancing technique was cemented in behind that?

European Trade Blade or European Trade Blade Influence. There is a huge difference. I have been fed the Trade Blade theory of ships camel trains etc bringing great quantities of German blades to Oman and either direct or via one of the hubs possibly Zanzibar. For proof I continue to search and if a single jot appears I will report on that. As it stands at the moment it looks like a myth !

Parallel with investigating imports I must also look for local manufacture. (it could be both) The timescale is as baffling to me as the unbelievable change in style.. All we know is that it happened.

From what you are saying ~ It seems logical that a way out for the long stiff blades may be as an interim blade between the Old Omani Short and the Long flexible item. Though I bear this in mind it does only seem to be in Red Sea variants which I associate with Mamluke, Saudia, Yemeni variants and with the addition of my earlier evidence showing possible Algerian influence/manufacture.

If it is proven that the Omani European Trade Blade is a myth could it be that the Omanis copied a long blade Red Sea variant into their history books...and gave it a flexible blade and spatulate tip?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

If it is proven that the Omani European Trade Blade is a myth could it be that the Omanis copied a long blade Red Sea variant into their history books...and gave it a flexible blade and spatulate tip?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

This seems the only logical way to approach the issue to me. If the flexible blades weren't imported, and it seems they weren't. Then you have to account for:

• Fake stamps, obviously copied from European stamps and only introduced into the local Omani swords because the stamps represented something that was respected and recognized locally

• Style of fullers and blade length

• Presence of typical trade blades in surrounding areas

• dramatic change in style and adoption of a totally new sword form corresponding closely with European trade blade profiles

I'm still interested in the sayfs with genuine trade blades that I've linked before, previously you discounted them as Omani based only on the blades, but is there a way to distinguish the hilts regionally? Perhaps I misunderstood you previous comments on them but it seemed you were saying they couldn't be Omani not based on the hilts, but because the blades were stiff.

I'm still not convinced the stiff blades weren't in use in Oman. As you said, the old short sword has a stiff blade, so there's no reason an Omani would object to a stiff European blade...

Basically it seems to me the most logical answer is that the flexible blades are designed to fit the dance (which is not to say they still wouldn't deliver a nasty cut, I'm sure they do!) and were adapted from European trade blades already present in the region. From the quotes you included in your last post it would seem these local flexible blades would have been in use by the early 1800s.

I think that's the most that can be said from the available data. Probably we are never going to agree entirely but I think we are getting closer.

There is no need to look for a flexible Omani specific trade blade probably.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

This seems the only logical way to approach the issue to me. If the flexible blades weren't imported, and it seems they weren't. Then you have to account for:

• Fake stamps, obviously copied from European stamps and only introduced into the local Omani swords because the stamps represented something that was respected and recognized locally

• Style of fullers and blade length

• Presence of typical trade blades in surrounding areas

• dramatic change in style and adoption of a totally new sword form corresponding closely with European trade blade profiles

I'm still interested in the sayfs with genuine trade blades that I've linked before, previously you discounted them as Omani based only on the blades, but is there a way to distinguish the hilts regionally? Perhaps I misunderstood you previous comments on them but it seemed you were saying they couldn't be Omani not based on the hilts, but because the blades were stiff.

I'm still not convinced the stiff blades weren't in use in Oman. As you said, the old short sword has a stiff blade, so there's no reason an Omani would object to a stiff European blade...

Basically it seems to me the most logical answer is that the flexible blades are designed to fit the dance (which is not to say they still wouldn't deliver a nasty cut, I'm sure they do!) and were adapted from European trade blades already present in the region. From the quotes you included in your last post it would seem these local flexible blades would have been in use by the early 1800s.

I think that's the most that can be said from the available data. Probably we are never going to agree entirely but I think we are getting closer.

There is no need to look for a flexible Omani specific trade blade probably.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~ The flexible long blade will slice an arm off easily. It can deliver slash and snick damage to vital areas in a flash... life expectancy is about 3 cuts and 3 minutes to lose all your blood ! It is a lethal weapon. Hooked up to a fight style I recognise this as a very formidable sword. It just happens to fit the other profile as well i.e. brilliant for dancing with...

The hypothesis looks a bit like this~ Oman had an old battle sword but in about the 18thC another sword style caught their attention; perhaps the Mamluke derivative coming down the Red Sea used in Yemen (Omans southern neighbour and or Algeria and Saudia etc)~Perhaps the Old Sword had outlived its purpose and became redundant because no one could make them anymore or gunpowder had made them redundant.

Could it be that the big heavy non flexing pointed Red Sea sword needed modifying for the smaller in stature Omanis?

It needed to be lighter. Therefore it was fullered and made thin at the point which then became redundant so it was spatula tipped.
To reflect the old weapon it was straight and double razor edged.
It certainly didn't need a quillon system though it can be argued that the cuff is retained in the long hilt.
It had to be a long hilt to balance the long blade.
The pommel weight balance was the final balance needed and in some theres a hole probably to take a wrist cord.
The long flat conical hilt perhaps reflects the old pommel Islamic arch design.
It made total sense to make the weapon as a one piece pommel tang and blade since with the older sword the weak point is vibration up the handle which on the new system is all but eradicated.
Finally it was matched to a quick style using the Terrs Buckler shield linked into the Traditional Funoon pageant and given the same name... Sayf.
Gradually possibly over 150 years the old sayf died out though was itself iconic; seen on the waist of a Sultan Bargash circa1890 at #25 on this thread.

Finally it is plausible that some Omani trader linked in with a European/Indian factory to knock the blades out in larger numbers though without blade stamps. Since then local production has continued.

I caution, however, since hypothesis in historical research is a dangerous road to go down. Forum demands proof.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Hi Ibrahiim,

The hypothesis is starting to sound pretty reasonable to me. Unfortunately in any type of historical research you are often not going to find absolute proof - although I certainly hope you do.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

The hypothesis is starting to sound pretty reasonable to me. Unfortunately in any type of historical research you are often not going to find absolute proof - although I certainly hope you do.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain .. We have the weapon... we know who used it... but can we find out who made it and when?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all,

Detail you cannot see at #25 on this thread is the style of hilt on the Sultan Bargash Old Omani Sayf however~ heres one~ From the Book by Richardson and Dorr; "The Craft Heritage of Oman" ~ Forum please note the identical style on the Royal Khanjar at the thread "The Omani Khanjar"#1 by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

I have been away from this fascinating thread for a while, and spent the better part of yesterday rereading, checking sources and notes and trying to absorb the basic course of these amazing discussions. This thread has become almost 'textbook' in the serious study of an indiginous weapon form and it is outstanding to see these kinds of approaches to learning from these weapons. As we have been seeing there are several instances of focus on particular weapons in this depth, and while commending Ibrahiim on this with the kattara I would be remiss in not recognizing the amazing work done by Iain in his study of the takouba, which has now brought in the kaskara and joined by Chris.
What is so important about this is that we are virtually joining forces in these studies and recognizing the powerful connection between these weapons and thier place in the vast trade networks which are key in the development of these forms.

I would like to add a few of my own observations and perspectives in the case of the thread topic, and the kattara, and try to reestablish my understandings thus far.

I think we agree that the 'old form' of Omani sword (thank you Ibrahiim for the post with example with its silvered sheathing, the first I have seen!) is a quite old form which may reflect early types of hilt in interior Omani regions. While we can presume this style hilt may reflect Abbasid styles of the 8th century, if I understand correctly we are uncertain of the exact form used as hilts surviving are not extant and as far as I know there are no iconographic sources reflecting these hilts. It is well established that in virtually all cases as seen by the swords in Yucel, early blades survive but the mounts are almost always newer. Blades as we know were remounted and reused through many generations, while even larger numbers were probably recycled as steel was valuable.

By the latter 18th century, trade had as noted long fluorished in Oman with Muscat the key market for the Persian Gulf, and Sultan bin Ahmad allied with Great Britain in thier treaty in 1798, pledging to help protect British interests in India. Trade between Africa and Oman was active and the EIC established a trade station in the Gulf under their auspices.
I would point out that in this very time, England was having issues with the abundance of trade blades from Germany which was contested by the English makers. Many German blades began being diverted to other markets which included North Africa by the early years of the 19th century. This simply augmented already well established systems of trade blades headed there long before, but more blades undoubtedly entered the Red Sea trade and by there into Arabian networks.

The fact that it is difficult to find examples of trade blades in present times still extant in examples of these sayfs is not at all surprising, given the fact that these swords often ended up leaving the regions in trade or recycled as they became old and worn. With the advent of military campaigns, colonialism, and of course tourism, souveniers and collecting these have largely disappeared into other contexts. Even in the Sudan during the British campaigns of the 1880s, so many native weapons had been consumed by souvenier hunting that a cottage industry creating more began...many of the components for these 'native' weapons were produced in England!

Actually, despite what is found in examples in these modern times, the vestiges of the once present European examples and thier subsequent African produced counterparts certainly were at some point earlier there in some degree.
I am not sure that I can accept a sword hilt style which was established so distinctly that its form became incorporated into a religious icon and so much so that it remained unchanged for 1000 years. As we know over time styles and decoration on everything changes in most cases, even in degree with traditional items particularly in religious context, but even such symbolic instances change no matter how subtly.
We are also well aware of 'revival' styles in weaponry and atavistic application in many forms. The swords rehilted in Istanbul in the 16th century are presumed to reflect early styles of the most revered periods in early Islam.

We then consider the evolution of the cylindrical hilt which if I understand correctly developed around the 18th century and seems oriented primarily in coastal regions of Muscat. The Sultanate of Oman extended across Strait of Hormuz to Iran, regions now Pakistan (Baluchistan) and to the Zanzibar regions of SE Africa. While Portugal controlled many of these regions prior to 1650, to believe that they did not bring in European blades would not seem possible. The Omani not only were industrious merchants but maintained powerful naval control in the gulf. Ras al Khaimah had been a wealthy port since the 7th century, and trade with India and Africa extant throughout early times well into 18th century.
German blades became well established in India, North Africa, throughout Europe, the Caucusus and many regions worldwide, and by the 18th century virtually dominated most trade networks as far as that commodity. To think that Oman, one of the most powerful trade networks in many of these, would be impervious to the use of these blades is another suggestion I cannot accept.

I would point out also that the 'running wolf' mark had become so far from its origins in Passau as generally held by the late 16th century that it was used 'interpretively' by many blademaking centers, and adopted into native cultures application through later years. Its actual use in Solingen and Italy had waned by the latter 17th century, and ceased being used by then. The exceptions were use in England by Shotley Bridge makers, and the mid 18th century use by Samuel Harvey (with his initials). In the Caucusus the Chechen makers began using the marking in about the 18th century as the 'ters maymal'. At some point other native blade makers began copying the mark in North Africa as well. Much as with the well known dual crescent moons, these marks were intended to imbue magic into the blade, and seem to have been applied to that end. While price may be construed as a motive, the talismanic appeal is more than the quality/price allusion in my thinking.
These often indiscernable 'quadrapeds' are therefore essentially all interpretations of a stylized symbol whose application was never intended to be deceptive but to recall a long standing tradition in blades, from Europe into a number of other cultures.

I just wanted to reassert my views at this point and to reaffirm my understandings of this most fascinating discussion on the kattara/sayf.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all,

Detail you cannot see at #25 on this thread is the style of hilt on the Sultan Bargash Old Omani Sayf however~ heres one~ From the Book by Richardson and Dorr; "The Craft Heritage of Oman" ~ Forum please note the identical style on the Royal Khanjar at the thread "The Omani Khanjar"#1 by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams All ~ Note to Library; "The Al Bu Saidi Dynasty" start date of circa 1744 was previously considered as a possible start date on the sa'idiyyah hilt; royal khanjar and royal old omani battle sword iconic hilt. This is wide of the actual mark since it seems that the likely designer was the wife of the ruler who was in power from 1806 (though there were 2 shared years previous) to 1856. ~ Sultan Said's second wife Binti Irich Mirza who was Persian and also called "Sheherazade" and it appears she designed the hilt. That puts the design date at no earlier than the marriage in about 1850.
Thus the dates of both hilts are revised to Circa 1850.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.