A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

Jens Nordlunde · 13th August 2005, 03:25 PM

Somewhere in one of my books I read, that a silk shirt was often worn over the mail shirt, if that is so, we are not likely to find miniatures showing someone wearing a mail shirt, as those being painted were those how could afford to wear a silk shirt. On the other hand, we wont find anything if we don’t look.

A blade like the one shown has been made for a reason, and it is true that I can’t prove it was to pierce a mail, but it is the only logical use for a blade like that. Used against a man without a mail, it would go right through to the hilt, as the narrowest point on the blade is at the hilt, it would likely be jammed between two ribs, and be very difficult to get loose, not a situation one would like surrounded by enemies. Used against someone with a mail shirt, it would, if it penetrated the mail, maybe go halfway in and wound the man – or with a bit of luck kill him. Proof is a good thing to have, but unfortunately we don’t always have it when we want it, and sometimes we will never get it, then we will have to do with the old books and logic, although that is no exchuse to stop looking.

Aqtai · 13th August 2005, 03:53 PM

That is a beautiful katar Jens.

There is the kazaghand, a form of armour which consisted of mail shirt covered with silk. This type of armour was worn as early as the 12th century in the Middle-East (Salaheddin is supposed to have worn one), and continued to be worn by the Ottomans in the 16th century. I believe there were a few kazaghands in the Bikanir armoury as well. The only picture I have ever seen of one is on plate VIII of H. Russell Robinson's Oriental Armour.

That picture posted by Mark Bowditch of Sivaji comes from "Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour", by Lord Egerton of Tatton, published in 1896. The same book mentions how Sivaji went to meet the Afghan warlord Afdal Khan with a

Quote:

...steel chain cap and chain armour under his turban and cotton gown, concealed a a crooked dagger or "bichwa" in his right sleeve, and on the fingers of his left hand he fixed a "waghnak"... ...in the midst of the customary embrace, Sivaji struck the waghnak into the bowels of Afdal Khan... The Khan had drawn his sword and made a cut at Sivaji, but the concealed armour was proof against the blow.

The story has no real bearing on the current discussion, but I like it!

I am also embarrassed to admit that I live less than a half hour drive from Tatton hall, were presumably Lord Egerton's collection is housed, and I have never seen it

. I will go, one day.

B.I · 13th August 2005, 07:27 PM

hi aqtai,
dont get your hopes up and dig out your camera too soon, as egertons arms collection isnt at tatton park. i believe other things are (so still worth a visit), but the arms collection was moved to manchester some time ago, and is buried deep in the reserves there.
i too like the shivaji story, as it gave the baghnak and bichwa legendary status. do you know that we have shivaji's sword in england.

Aqtai · 13th August 2005, 09:59 PM

Thanks for letting me know Brian, I managed to persuade my other half to go tomorrow with me, at least I won't be chasing all over the house looking for the collection.

I didn't know about Shivaji's sword, where is it now, not buried deep in some museums reserves I hope?

B.I · 14th August 2005, 09:51 AM

hi aqtai,
worse, i'm afraid. its in the royal collection. there are two shivaji swords, one still in india and the other given to the prince of wales (i think) by shivajis descendents. its either in sandringhan or marlborough house but i dont think its on display.
it has caused controversy for many years of course, as it has been asked to be returned to india, but thats a political conversation that needs avoiding

sandringham is worth a visit, but take binoculars (no joke).

Aqtai · 14th August 2005, 09:41 PM

I am aware that Sandringham has a huge collection of Indian weapons and armour (I suppose HRH could try experiments with katars and Indian mail whenever he feels like it

), I remember seeing an old book with black and white photos of the collection a few years ago. I wasn't aware that Sandringham is open to the public, or is that why I need binoculars

.

I had a wander around Tatton Hall today, all that is left are a few African weapons.

B.I · 14th August 2005, 10:43 PM

hi aqtai,
the royal collections are really worth seeing. sandringham and windsor both have a fair amount on show, but they have much more that is inaccessable. the frustrating thing is you pass corridors full of weapons that are cordoned off.
there are some great displays in sandringham, but much is mounted very high on the wall, hence the need for binoculors. honestly, if you do go you will really regret not taking them.
marlborough house isnt open to the public, as far as i know.
the queens armourer is a really nice guy, and used to work in the V&A. he has a vested interest in indian arms from his previous post, so maybe displays or exhibitions can happen in the future.

13th August 2005, 03:25 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Somewhere in one of my books I read, that a silk shirt was often worn over the mail shirt, if that is so, we are not likely to find miniatures showing someone wearing a mail shirt, as those being painted were those how could afford to wear a silk shirt. On the other hand, we wont find anything if we don’t look. A blade like the one shown has been made for a reason, and it is true that I can’t prove it was to pierce a mail, but it is the only logical use for a blade like that. Used against a man without a mail, it would go right through to the hilt, as the narrowest point on the blade is at the hilt, it would likely be jammed between two ribs, and be very difficult to get loose, not a situation one would like surrounded by enemies. Used against someone with a mail shirt, it would, if it penetrated the mail, maybe go halfway in and wound the man – or with a bit of luck kill him. Proof is a good thing to have, but unfortunately we don’t always have it when we want it, and sometimes we will never get it, then we will have to do with the old books and logic, although that is no exchuse to stop looking. Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 13th August 2005 at 03:38 PM.

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13th August 2005, 07:27 PM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, dont get your hopes up and dig out your camera too soon, as egertons arms collection isnt at tatton park. i believe other things are (so still worth a visit), but the arms collection was moved to manchester some time ago, and is buried deep in the reserves there. i too like the shivaji story, as it gave the baghnak and bichwa legendary status. do you know that we have shivaji's sword in england.

13th August 2005, 09:59 PM	#4
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Thanks for letting me know Brian, I managed to persuade my other half to go tomorrow with me, at least I won't be chasing all over the house looking for the collection. I didn't know about Shivaji's sword, where is it now, not buried deep in some museums reserves I hope?

14th August 2005, 09:51 AM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, worse, i'm afraid. its in the royal collection. there are two shivaji swords, one still in india and the other given to the prince of wales (i think) by shivajis descendents. its either in sandringhan or marlborough house but i dont think its on display. it has caused controversy for many years of course, as it has been asked to be returned to india, but thats a political conversation that needs avoiding sandringham is worth a visit, but take binoculars (no joke).

14th August 2005, 09:41 PM	#6
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I am aware that Sandringham has a huge collection of Indian weapons and armour (I suppose HRH could try experiments with katars and Indian mail whenever he feels like it ), I remember seeing an old book with black and white photos of the collection a few years ago. I wasn't aware that Sandringham is open to the public, or is that why I need binoculars . I had a wander around Tatton Hall today, all that is left are a few African weapons.

14th August 2005, 10:43 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, the royal collections are really worth seeing. sandringham and windsor both have a fair amount on show, but they have much more that is inaccessable. the frustrating thing is you pass corridors full of weapons that are cordoned off. there are some great displays in sandringham, but much is mounted very high on the wall, hence the need for binoculors. honestly, if you do go you will really regret not taking them. marlborough house isnt open to the public, as far as i know. the queens armourer is a really nice guy, and used to work in the V&A. he has a vested interest in indian arms from his previous post, so maybe displays or exhibitions can happen in the future.