Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Thanks for clarifying your position Ibrahiim.

Just a couple questions for you, just to stimulation the discussion, I am neither on one side of the fence or the other on your question of trade blades, I just find the discussion interesting, so please don't take this as an attack on your research. I realized we've discussed some of these issues before but as you posted a new summary I think it is important to come back to them.

• If not for outside European influences who do local versions of the running wolf occur, like this example which should be, by your definition I think a "real and local" Omani sayf: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1971

• How would you account for the use of triple fullers and half moon stamps like on this example: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2700 Features in other African sword forms derived directly from European trade blades.

• Why would the older short sayf form be replaced at all if not for a dramatic outside influence? If the tradition and symbolism of the original sword was so important? Why else would it suddenly change?

• Can you maybe explain for us why flexibility would be important in a sayf not just for the dance but also combat? A lot of your definition hangs on this point and I am unsure of how far back it is possible to accurately trace this preference for flexible blades? Is it not possible the preference for flexibility and the buzzing sound is a more modern (by modern I mean as the sword declined in importance for combat as firearms took over) requirement due to the dance aspect? I would be surprised if in earlier periods the need for the sword to buzz when swung would be considered over steel quality.

Perhaps a good way to sum up what I am trying to say is, could it perhaps be said that the long sayf, flexible form, are not European trade blades, but a local imitation of trade blades, adapted to be flexible and fulfill the requirements of the Razha and Ayaalah?

I am not an expert in the hilts of the region but I find it very odd to assume that based on blade flexibility alone everything with an actual trade blade could be conclusively written off as not Omani while the genuine Omani swords retain many of the exact same features (fullers and stamps) as the trade blades. At some point for flexible blades, influenced by trade blades, to be made, someone had to think the original trade blades had a lot of good features...

Just some points to think about.

All the best,

Iain

Salaams Iain and thank you for some excellent observations ! Last point first; This is a vital point " To perform the Funoon the blade has to be flexible" ie if it is a stiff inflexible blade it is not Omani. On balance probably Yemeni possibly Saudia or even Algerian and likely to be Mamluke influenced. In the Sayf it does have fullers which make the sword lighter and more flexible... and stamps though none which are other than Omani origin... except fakes.. done to raise the price or for prestige. I dont see any trade blade examples which the Omanis may have copied as they are so different...being tang pommel and blade in a specific Omani format...

If they are not European Trade Blades they must be either local or from somewhere close...I look at India, Sri Lanka, Persia and Yemen without success ... yet.. though if I was to hazzard a guess I would say maybe Yemen fits the cloak or more logically Oman itself ie Nizwa !

Flexibility.. As I say this is parmount in importance. Certainly this is a good point since for example comparing plain steel with wootz which is not used save for a few omani Sayf that RSWORD knows of that I put down to dignatories and or merchants having commissioned from wootz centres say Hyderabad or elsewhere.(and RSWORD will tell you there may well be more of these hidden under unpolished blades.) The Omanis dont seem to have bothered with wootz on either Swords or Khanjars. The flexible razor sharp whip bladed springy steel Sayf seemed to be the form.
The point about its decline as a fighting weapon and its preference as more of a Pageantry and symbolic display is key however I have no idea on precise timescale but suggest late 1700 early 1800 as the beginning of the new system which could have been gradual say over 50 to 100 years. Certainly both old and new Sayfs were Iconic and seen on pictures earlier in this thread on various Sultans waists into the 20th C..

Why would the older short sayf form be replaced ~ That baffles me as well. The only ideas I have on that is tied into the pageantry aspect and because there werent enough old swords left... and they were difficult to produce. I see the old sword overlapping into the new sword timescale by perhaps 150 years or more... I imagine a gradual swing to the new "dancing blade".

Fullers and moon stamps. Fullering was a common enough technical advance in sword making so I see no reason why the Omanis didn't cotton on to the idea via trade etc. Moons are Islamic though I dont see them on Omani Sayf much as I recall.. but often on Red Sea variants.

Meanwhile I look up your references:
The first http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1971 is an Omani Sayf ! not a Kattara and it carries a fake stamp running woolf. It is Omani with fullers.

Your second reference is another Omani Sayf (not a Kattara... Kattaras are curved) It has 3 fullers and a peculiar two moon strike that I have never seen before but which are probably fake.

Both the weapons are Omani Sayf ... Flexible long bladed, long hilts and neither carrying any proof of origin to European Trade Blades since the marks are likely fakes.

Shukran.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Hi Ibrahiim,

Your points are clear and I'm glad you are acknowledging the flexibility issue is driven by dance not combat needs. I think since you aren't sure of a timeline, that perhaps you are assigning this need to a far earlier period than necessary.

Do you have or have you examined a circa 18th century flexible long sayf blade? Pictures?

I think by assuming the flexibility requirement goes that far back you are removing the key evidence for the long form sayf.

Regarding if hilting a blade changes the ethnicity, I would say yes, because it means the sword was accepted into that ethnicity. Otherwise there is no way to include European blades into your Omani sayf definition at all - you have ruled them out with your criteria. That's why I would say I have a takouba with a European blade, the hilting turns it into a takouba and a sword of the Hausa/Tuareg/Fulani/whatever. Hilting is the process of adopting a blade locally.

Regarding fullers and marks:

On marks, there is no reason to make them to enhance the perceived value of the blade if the original European blades were not already in use and perceived as valuable. So if we have flexible blades with fake marks it clearly points out the fact that the original European blades were respected and desired locally - otherwise no reason to copy the marks. So I don't really care if the marks are fake or not, they wouldn't exist if Omanis were using European blades and associating the marks with quality. If there was no trade blade influence, you wouldn't find the marks at all, there would be no reason for Omani smiths to copy them. Are there marks on the short old sayf type in the same style? Not that I've ever seen, somehow and from somewhere the idea to start using blade marks arrived.

Fullers, the triple fuller configuration in conjunction with the half moon stamps (and these half moons have a face which I do not believe is a typical Islamic illustration?) are a very well known pattern. That it would appear in Oman, at roughly the same time period as the Sahel and other areas, in exactly the same pattern, without being directly related to the European imports, really seems to defy logic. Just too many coincidences. This matches up exactly with the examples I linked and you acknowledge are Omani.

I realize your skepticism has a sound base in having not found any European blades in swords that are Omani in your system, but I have to think this is only because you have set the criteria in your system in such a way that you will never find any because you are not counting the stiffer blades. We've already seen at least one example of how the tangs and long hilts are combined on trade blades.

The way you've structured the progression there is a hole in the transition from a pretty specific style of short sword to a long blade with some pretty striking characteristics which happen to line up perfectly with European blades found in the area, except for stiffness. Remove the reliance on having to say an Omani blade flexes to around 90 degrees (by the way do the short swords do this?) and you remove the hole and have a clear progression where elements of European trade blades were copied into a new Omani form that provided the flexibility needed for the dance.

I really just don't see how there is any other conclusion for fake wolf stamps, triple fullers with twin moon stamps and the like popping up in Omani swords, not to mention a switch to a sword length that matches up nicely with the European exports.

For me the issue is not in finding the mythical flexible long form sayf export blade from Europe, but in understanding why and how that form was developed locally and what influences led to the dramatic change in form.

As always, just some friendly ideas and comments.

All the best,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

Your points are clear and I'm glad you are acknowledging the flexibility issue is driven by dance not combat needs. I think since you aren't sure of a timeline, that perhaps you are assigning this need to a far earlier period than necessary.

Do you have or have you examined a circa 18th century flexible long sayf blade? Pictures?

I think by assuming the flexibility requirement goes that far back you are removing the key evidence for the long form sayf.

Regarding if hilting a blade changes the ethnicity, I would say yes, because it means the sword was accepted into that ethnicity. Otherwise there is no way to include European blades into your Omani sayf definition at all - you have ruled them out with your criteria. That's why I would say I have a takouba with a European blade, the hilting turns it into a takouba and a sword of the Hausa/Tuareg/Fulani/whatever. Hilting is the process of adopting a blade locally.

Regarding fullers and marks:

On marks, there is no reason to make them to enhance the perceived value of the blade if the original European blades were not already in use and perceived as valuable. So if we have flexible blades with fake marks it clearly points out the fact that the original European blades were respected and desired locally - otherwise no reason to copy the marks. So I don't really care if the marks are fake or not, they wouldn't exist if Omanis were using European blades and associating the marks with quality. If there was no trade blade influence, you wouldn't find the marks at all, there would be no reason for Omani smiths to copy them. Are there marks on the short old sayf type in the same style? Not that I've ever seen, somehow and from somewhere the idea to start using blade marks arrived.

Fullers, the triple fuller configuration in conjunction with the half moon stamps (and these half moons have a face which I do not believe is a typical Islamic illustration?) are a very well known pattern. That it would appear in Oman, at roughly the same time period as the Sahel and other areas, in exactly the same pattern, without being directly related to the European imports, really seems to defy logic. Just too many coincidences. This matches up exactly with the examples I linked and you acknowledge are Omani.

I realize your skepticism has a sound base in having not found any European blades in swords that are Omani in your system, but I have to think this is only because you have set the criteria in your system in such a way that you will never find any because you are not counting the stiffer blades. We've already seen at least one example of how the tangs and long hilts are combined on trade blades.

The way you've structured the progression there is a hole in the transition from a pretty specific style of short sword to a long blade with some pretty striking characteristics which happen to line up perfectly with European blades found in the area, except for stiffness. Remove the reliance on having to say an Omani blade flexes to around 90 degrees (by the way do the short swords do this?) and you remove the hole and have a clear progression where elements of European trade blades were copied into a new Omani form that provided the flexibility needed for the dance.

I really just don't see how there is any other conclusion for fake wolf stamps, triple fullers with twin moon stamps and the like popping up in Omani swords, not to mention a switch to a sword length that matches up nicely with the European exports.

For me the issue is not in finding the mythical flexible long form sayf export blade from Europe, but in understanding why and how that form was developed locally and what influences led to the dramatic change in form.

As always, just some friendly ideas and comments.

All the best,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~ I agree with most of your post. You are correct in assuming my scepticism since I have not found a single piece of evidence that a European Trade Blade exists in Oman.

Much of the discussion revolves around what you say and is as yet largely unresolved. The important thing for me is to keep an open mind since there is such fragile evidence for local manufacture and even less scant clue as to the European Trade Blade import story.

Fake Stamps. The Muscat Museum insists that the woolf stamp on their 19th C Long Omani Sayf is fake. I believe it is . I have seen other fake stamps on the thick blade variants from what I believe is Yemeni/Saudia sword identical to the one shown in the Yemeni Military Museum. Faking blade marks is legion here... I would say the majority of swords here carry fake markings. As I say prestige and price are likely candidates. I show a swathe of fake marks on this thread Raj Crowns, God is Great, stars et al on #98... they are nearly all shoved on for show or to fake provenance or raise the price. Odd in its own right since thay are true Omani Swords but left to individual swordmakers they seem to think it makes the item more attractive (there is something in that from the cosmetic viewpoint). I handled a sword in Muscat Souk for which I have a photo and that too was a Red Sea job fake marked with the easily copied passau woolf. It only requires a decent chisel and a mallet and its about 15 small strikes to copy.. as you know the mark is quite randomly done even on originals so it is a cinch to copy..

Timescale. Naturally this is a vital question but is as yet not pinpointed, though, you will see quotes on this thread from European visitors mentioning the blades likeness to Scotish claymores...at the Hormus Garrison in the early 1800s etc. viz;

1.In 1878 a Mr Geary (editor of the Times of India) visited Muscat and wrote of the weapons he saw carried by locals ~ A favourite weapon is a straight broad two-handed sword, the sweep of which would take off a man's thigh or even cut him in two at the waist.The swordsmen carried over their shoulder small shields of rhinoceros horn 8 or 9 inches in diameter....

2.Captain James Welstead in 1835 at Jalaan Bani Bu Ali (on the Eastern edge of the Wahaybah) remarked on the Funoon, Razha, sword parade and dance that the blades of their swords are 3 feet in length, straight, thin, double edged and as sharp as a razor.

3.Mr Frazer who also visited Hormuz in 1821 (and Oman at the same time as Welstead in about 1835) described The Omani Garrison at Hormuz swords as similar to Scotish Broadswords and also described separately in Oman later the Ters buckler shields..


Flexibility of blade. Vital. Not flexible not Omani and must be spatulate tipped not pointed ~ To date I have not handled a stiff dancing blade (my terminology since I can see how lethal they are as fighting swords also). Old blades Sayf Yamani are completely stiff and pointed. Is it simply down to fashion that bendy blades took over...in a suggested broad timescale of say 150 years...and a new fighting and dancing technique was cemented in behind that?

European Trade Blade or European Trade Blade Influence. There is a huge difference. I have been fed the Trade Blade theory of ships camel trains etc bringing great quantities of German blades to Oman and either direct or via one of the hubs possibly Zanzibar. For proof I continue to search and if a single jot appears I will report on that. As it stands at the moment it looks like a myth !

Parallel with investigating imports I must also look for local manufacture. (it could be both) The timescale is as baffling to me as the unbelievable change in style.. All we know is that it happened.

From what you are saying ~ It seems logical that a way out for the long stiff blades may be as an interim blade between the Old Omani Short and the Long flexible item. Though I bear this in mind it does only seem to be in Red Sea variants which I associate with Mamluke, Saudia, Yemeni variants and with the addition of my earlier evidence showing possible Algerian influence/manufacture.

If it is proven that the Omani European Trade Blade is a myth could it be that the Omanis copied a long blade Red Sea variant into their history books...and gave it a flexible blade and spatulate tip?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

If it is proven that the Omani European Trade Blade is a myth could it be that the Omanis copied a long blade Red Sea variant into their history books...and gave it a flexible blade and spatulate tip?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

This seems the only logical way to approach the issue to me. If the flexible blades weren't imported, and it seems they weren't. Then you have to account for:

• Fake stamps, obviously copied from European stamps and only introduced into the local Omani swords because the stamps represented something that was respected and recognized locally

• Style of fullers and blade length

• Presence of typical trade blades in surrounding areas

• dramatic change in style and adoption of a totally new sword form corresponding closely with European trade blade profiles

I'm still interested in the sayfs with genuine trade blades that I've linked before, previously you discounted them as Omani based only on the blades, but is there a way to distinguish the hilts regionally? Perhaps I misunderstood you previous comments on them but it seemed you were saying they couldn't be Omani not based on the hilts, but because the blades were stiff.

I'm still not convinced the stiff blades weren't in use in Oman. As you said, the old short sword has a stiff blade, so there's no reason an Omani would object to a stiff European blade...

Basically it seems to me the most logical answer is that the flexible blades are designed to fit the dance (which is not to say they still wouldn't deliver a nasty cut, I'm sure they do!) and were adapted from European trade blades already present in the region. From the quotes you included in your last post it would seem these local flexible blades would have been in use by the early 1800s.

I think that's the most that can be said from the available data. Probably we are never going to agree entirely but I think we are getting closer.

There is no need to look for a flexible Omani specific trade blade probably.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

This seems the only logical way to approach the issue to me. If the flexible blades weren't imported, and it seems they weren't. Then you have to account for:

• Fake stamps, obviously copied from European stamps and only introduced into the local Omani swords because the stamps represented something that was respected and recognized locally

• Style of fullers and blade length

• Presence of typical trade blades in surrounding areas

• dramatic change in style and adoption of a totally new sword form corresponding closely with European trade blade profiles

I'm still interested in the sayfs with genuine trade blades that I've linked before, previously you discounted them as Omani based only on the blades, but is there a way to distinguish the hilts regionally? Perhaps I misunderstood you previous comments on them but it seemed you were saying they couldn't be Omani not based on the hilts, but because the blades were stiff.

I'm still not convinced the stiff blades weren't in use in Oman. As you said, the old short sword has a stiff blade, so there's no reason an Omani would object to a stiff European blade...

Basically it seems to me the most logical answer is that the flexible blades are designed to fit the dance (which is not to say they still wouldn't deliver a nasty cut, I'm sure they do!) and were adapted from European trade blades already present in the region. From the quotes you included in your last post it would seem these local flexible blades would have been in use by the early 1800s.

I think that's the most that can be said from the available data. Probably we are never going to agree entirely but I think we are getting closer.

There is no need to look for a flexible Omani specific trade blade probably.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~ The flexible long blade will slice an arm off easily. It can deliver slash and snick damage to vital areas in a flash... life expectancy is about 3 cuts and 3 minutes to lose all your blood ! It is a lethal weapon. Hooked up to a fight style I recognise this as a very formidable sword. It just happens to fit the other profile as well i.e. brilliant for dancing with...

The hypothesis looks a bit like this~ Oman had an old battle sword but in about the 18thC another sword style caught their attention; perhaps the Mamluke derivative coming down the Red Sea used in Yemen (Omans southern neighbour and or Algeria and Saudia etc)~Perhaps the Old Sword had outlived its purpose and became redundant because no one could make them anymore or gunpowder had made them redundant.

Could it be that the big heavy non flexing pointed Red Sea sword needed modifying for the smaller in stature Omanis?

It needed to be lighter. Therefore it was fullered and made thin at the point which then became redundant so it was spatula tipped.
To reflect the old weapon it was straight and double razor edged.
It certainly didn't need a quillon system though it can be argued that the cuff is retained in the long hilt.
It had to be a long hilt to balance the long blade.
The pommel weight balance was the final balance needed and in some theres a hole probably to take a wrist cord.
The long flat conical hilt perhaps reflects the old pommel Islamic arch design.
It made total sense to make the weapon as a one piece pommel tang and blade since with the older sword the weak point is vibration up the handle which on the new system is all but eradicated.
Finally it was matched to a quick style using the Terrs Buckler shield linked into the Traditional Funoon pageant and given the same name... Sayf.
Gradually possibly over 150 years the old sayf died out though was itself iconic; seen on the waist of a Sultan Bargash circa1890 at #25 on this thread.

Finally it is plausible that some Omani trader linked in with a European/Indian factory to knock the blades out in larger numbers though without blade stamps. Since then local production has continued.

I caution, however, since hypothesis in historical research is a dangerous road to go down. Forum demands proof.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Hi Ibrahiim,

The hypothesis is starting to sound pretty reasonable to me. Unfortunately in any type of historical research you are often not going to find absolute proof - although I certainly hope you do.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

The hypothesis is starting to sound pretty reasonable to me. Unfortunately in any type of historical research you are often not going to find absolute proof - although I certainly hope you do.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain .. We have the weapon... we know who used it... but can we find out who made it and when?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.