Wilah nr 4 for identification

[Harley]

Thank you Alan, for the explanation and I'll see what i can make of it.

What you said about a patrem is very interesting, i never heard that

regards,
Ben

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Harley

Thank you Alan, for the explanation and I'll see what i can make of it.
regards,
Ben

Ben,
These pictures show 2 examples of sandang walikat sheaths (in one piece)matching with a short blade like yours.
Regards

[Harley]

Thank you again Jean, these are very nice examples to work from, i hope i can come a little in the near of these ones, but it will be very difficult to make in one piece, the only advantage is that the blade is not so long.

regards,
Ben

[David]

Originally Posted by Harley

What you said about a patrem is very interesting, i never heard that

A agree, this is also the first time i have heard this and it is very interesting indeed...

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Harley

What you said about a patrem is very interesting, i never heard that

The third one who never heard this! Very interesting indeed.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Alan,

could be this keris by a blade length (without pesi) from 22,5 cm a genuine patrem keris?

Regards,

Detlef

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Alan,

could be this keris by a blade lenght (without pesi) from 22,5 cm as genuine patrem keris?

Regards,

Detlef

Nice! IMO the blade could comes from another more long. I see the blade good for magic, not for woman (...but often magic and women come together )

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Nice! IMO the blade could comes from another more long. I see the blade good for magic, not for woman (...but often magic and women come together )

Hello Marco,

have had the same thought that it is maybe a reshaped keris which was longer before.
The sheath is with real kendit.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

(...but often magic and women come together )

As long as is not black magic........

[sirek]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Alan,

could be this keris by a blade lenght (without pesi) from 22,5 cm as genuine patrem keris?

Regards,

Detlef

Found this schedule once on the net. (can not confirm if this is true )
LAME= BLADE
1 CM = 0.39 inch

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by sirek

Found this schedule once on the net. (can not confirm if this is true )
LAME= BLADE
1 CM = 0.39 inch

Hello Sirek,

thank you for posting this shedule, think it can be taken as approximate value.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Penangsang--- no, not necessarily Kraton mpu made. Just because a woman might be attached to a Kraton this does not make of her somebody of sufficient wealth or rank to be able to use the services of an mpu who is a part of the Kraton hierarchy.

Many abdi dalem are really quite poor people, and even a lot of genuine blood aristocrats are not wealthy, and struggle to make ends meet.

Detlef --- I think this blade has been reshaped, I would not consider this a patrem.

I'm a little surprised that nobody knew the purpose of the patrem, I thought it was something that was general knowledge. To understand the need for a woman to follow her husband or master in death one needs to understand the mindset that applied in pre-Islamic Jawa, and which was continued in Bali until the early 20th century. This mindset was continued to a degree in Javanese kraton society, even after the dominance of Islam, and was one of the reasons for the the discord between Mataram and the clergy which resulted in the massacres of the 17th century. Even today kraton society in Central Jawa reflects a Hindu-Buddhist essence in many respects.

Some insight into the way in which women saw the following of husband or lord into the next world can be gained from "Bali's Early Days", A.A.GDE Putra Agung, ISBN 978-979-1173-13-1

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Detlef --- I think this blade has been reshaped, I would not consider this a patrem.

Thank you Alan, you confirm what I have thought already.

Regards,

Detlef