So, what's up with the diamond shape in the counterguard?

[Hotspur]

In the process of thought, I had meant to offer a couple of readings that have somewhat piqued my own interests of association.. The first in some years ago looking at the first charter of the British Odd Fellows, which was brought out as an opportunity for those barred from the public (do note public) Free Masons brought forth in the early 18th century. With the Odd Fellows, the distinction between classes of society are then blended further than freemasonry at the time.

A good look at the guilds and structure, including Edward III buying his ticket in the linen armourers' guild.

http://www.takver.com/history/benefit/ctormys.htm

Then, a good look at the tarot in context with the secret society and an essay from quite some time ago I have read and re-read. Both links actually have helped guide my own thoughts as the hilt decoration being as much simple guild class structuring as meaning to be less convincing it is masonic but rather that the masons and other groups have/had adopted the structure of the guilds back to the first instances of political and religious structure in Europe.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masoni...ds_Masonic.htm


Arguably, the stone masons guild could be held up as the cornerstone of building all guilds and an example of how to structure society but were they the first? Considering the earlier influences of knowledge going much further back than Europe's stone masons guild, it is rather that these groups including all the medieval the guilds reach back to divine creation and the supreme being.

Kipling's short story of The Man Who Would Be King points out the adoption of the Kabbalistic truths by the Free Masons, not the other way around. Poor Danny's head served up with the crown.

So anyway, the parallels kind of obvious but that goes back to my first question about "what's up with the diamond in the counterguard?" The pentacle changed to a four pointed mullet to satisfy the church? Likewise cups being changed to a heart to satisfy Catholicism? Wands to clubs (see the eaglehead examples)? Swords to spades?

Could the four tarot interpretations then classify (literally) the decorations?

Cheers

GC

[Jim McDougall]

Great perspective Glen, and we are really entering esoteric territory which is tremendously complex. I like your ideas about the symbols used in card suits and tarot having potential influence in the selection of some of these design elements in the hilt motif. It seem that evidentially there is little association with the various Tarot symbolism which can be directly associated to anything in Masonic principles or philosophy, however the last decades of the 18th century into the early 19th were times wrought with fascination with esoterica.
While the intrigue surrounding secret societies, arcane philosophies and political and religiously oriented groups seem to have rampant in the society of these times, the Freemasons stood out most predominantly. As has been observed for some time, the makers marks, guild marks and stamps along with trademarks and merchants marks in general have largely seemed to carry some allusion to various kinds of esoterica. Much of this is directly related to cabalistic symbolism and various amuletic values as used talismanically, along with some religious in nature and even alchemical allegory. It is of course quite difficult to separate most of this in trying to identify these kinds of symbolism in items now profoundly out of context, and try to imagine what secretive ideas might have been intended to be conveyed.

As always, in approaching these kinds of investigations, we do not need to believe or follow what ideas are represented, but the difficulty is in finding and trying to understand what the individuals either producing or using the sword or weapon believed or followed.

It would seem that in these times with the preoccupation with neoclassicism and as mentioned, arcane elements, that these symbols which were also present in varying degree in heraldry, might have been quite appealing to the pretensions of the gentry and social elite. It is known that much of the symbolism found in the so called talismanic blade markings of the 18th century began in large degree with hunting swords, which of course were for this level of society. Following in this manner were markings and decoration on court swords and of course officers swords. It is not surprising then that the motif in hilts would adopt such character in designs. With that, it does not seem unreasonable at all that the symbols present in arcane context such as Tarot, esoterica and heraldry might enter favored designs for these rather elegant hilts.

Its good to be able to discuss these ideas on these kinds of motif, and I really appreciate being able to share thoughts with you. I hope maybe others will join in with thier views as well.

I am attaching the four suits of cards and the arm holding a wand (in tarot, corresponding to clubs in playing cards). This symbol is often seen on the 'talismanic' motif on 18th century European sword blades as an arm holding a sword extending from a cloud.

All the best,
Jim