Indian sword for ID

Stan S. · 7th December 2011, 01:37 AM

What you have here is a very cool khanda hilted ritual/temple/sacrificial sword most likely from Southern India. While its usefulness for sacrifices is questionable at best (although I could see the in-curve in the middle of the blade to be well suited for cattle decapitation) , these kind of swords are quite scarse and thus are always desirable. A unique and beutiful piece!

Jim McDougall · 7th December 2011, 06:21 AM

These kinds of doubly recurved blades are typically relatively modern interpretative weapons which are best described as South Indian flamboyant or 'temple' swords typically associated with the Nayars (a former military caste in Malabar regions). The extravagant blade forms, such as with this example, described by Rawson as 'deep bellied kopis form' is similar to one depicted as a 'virigal executioners sword of the 10th c.'. A virigal is a Hindu tombstone for military heroes (Rawson, p.41). It is noted that the sword design is derived from sculptures at Barabadur in Java.

These swords are typically regarded as for ceremonial or processional use and that "..display in the outward and visible aspect of the forms was what was sought " (Rawson, p.39) and that "...imaginative extravagance was allowed free play and that display was given an overwhelming preponderance over use". Further noted was that thier forms must be regarded as the products of fantasy rather than use.

These kinds of iconographic atavism are seen often in ethnographic weapons, and while the Hindu baskethilt suggests a weapon probably considerably antedating most of the flamboyant Nayar temple weapons, its overall intention seems to fall in place with similar uses. As far as I have known these weapons have not been used in sacrificial ceremonies, though as a processional type weapon this lacks the familiar piercings for attaching jingles.

For those who chose to read further:
"The Indian Sword" Philip Rawson, 1968
"Siviganga Swords" C.S.Clarke, 'Burlington Magazine', 1916,London
"Castes and Tribes of Southern India" E.Thurston, Madras, 1909 (Nayars)

Sajen · 7th December 2011, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is noted that the sword design is derived from sculptures at Barabadur in Java.

Hello Jim,

do you mean Borobudur the Mahayana Buddist monument on Java?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borobudur

Regards,

Detlef

Jim McDougall · 7th December 2011, 07:46 PM

Yes, that is the alternate spelling, same place. I am not certain which sculpture or frieze the author refers to, but the point is that many of these unusual shapes in blades seem derived iconographically from many of the temples and viragals from early times. There is a great deal of emphasis in the stylized character and flamboyance in many of the blade forms which while quite effective in artistic setting, was not likely practical in actual use. This is often the case when trying to understand the manner of actual use in these ancient forms, but in cases of traditional display they of course would not be required to serve other than for such ceremonial displays.

Best

Jim

katana · 8th December 2011, 04:52 PM

I had always thought of these as ceremonial, but a while ago I saw a similar one to the that posted. Slightly longer with a 'sickle-like' curve. The blade was heavy, fully sharpened and very business like. It was a single edged on the inside of the curve ....I wondered whether it could be used to 'hamstring' charging horses or had some other 'specialised' use

Kind Regards David

ariel · 8th December 2011, 05:38 PM

Thanks to all for your thoughts.
I have never believed in highly specialized functions: this one to cut horses' bridles, that one for hamstringing them, yet another for poking their eyes out from behind the corner on a moonless night.
Swords are divided mainly into stabbing and slashing, but even those can cross-function.
I am glad you saw another one like that; mine is also heavy, sharp and very business-like. I agree it is likely to be South Indian ( they always had a penchant for bizarre forms :-)). There must have been some kind of a pattern, but I guess we just do not know enough to pigeonhole it.... But this is true about a lot of other Eastern or African swords.
Please, continue offering your thoughts and suggestions. Much appreciated.

Jim McDougall · 8th December 2011, 06:07 PM

I think a glance into Rawson and Egerton will show this type sword corresponding to iconographic styles and most likely from Deccan to southern India, and these as I had noted seem largely in a 'revival' sense representing the flamboyant forms of historic earlier times.
Naturally, these are for visual effect and undulating or serpentine blades do not offer particularly any notable advantage in actual combative use, but most likely disadvantage in that regard. The idea of weapons for specific purpose such as 'hamstringing' etc.based on blade shapes is of course not in my opinion feasible but sounds interesting.
Weapons intended for ceremonial, processional or rituals (not necessarily sacrificial) are inclined to promote dramatic effect, and references to such weapons being held in front of participating individuals in a bearing type position suggest these kinds of purposeful display.

7th December 2011, 01:37 AM	#1
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	What you have here is a very cool khanda hilted ritual/temple/sacrificial sword most likely from Southern India. While its usefulness for sacrifices is questionable at best (although I could see the in-curve in the middle of the blade to be well suited for cattle decapitation) , these kind of swords are quite scarse and thus are always desirable. A unique and beutiful piece! Last edited by Stan S.; 7th December 2011 at 04:08 AM.

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7th December 2011, 06:21 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	These kinds of doubly recurved blades are typically relatively modern interpretative weapons which are best described as South Indian flamboyant or 'temple' swords typically associated with the Nayars (a former military caste in Malabar regions). The extravagant blade forms, such as with this example, described by Rawson as 'deep bellied kopis form' is similar to one depicted as a 'virigal executioners sword of the 10th c.'. A virigal is a Hindu tombstone for military heroes (Rawson, p.41). It is noted that the sword design is derived from sculptures at Barabadur in Java. These swords are typically regarded as for ceremonial or processional use and that "..display in the outward and visible aspect of the forms was what was sought " (Rawson, p.39) and that "...imaginative extravagance was allowed free play and that display was given an overwhelming preponderance over use". Further noted was that thier forms must be regarded as the products of fantasy rather than use. These kinds of iconographic atavism are seen often in ethnographic weapons, and while the Hindu baskethilt suggests a weapon probably considerably antedating most of the flamboyant Nayar temple weapons, its overall intention seems to fall in place with similar uses. As far as I have known these weapons have not been used in sacrificial ceremonies, though as a processional type weapon this lacks the familiar piercings for attaching jingles. For those who chose to read further: "The Indian Sword" Philip Rawson, 1968 "Siviganga Swords" C.S.Clarke, 'Burlington Magazine', 1916,London "Castes and Tribes of Southern India" E.Thurston, Madras, 1909 (Nayars)

7th December 2011, 07:46 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Yes, that is the alternate spelling, same place. I am not certain which sculpture or frieze the author refers to, but the point is that many of these unusual shapes in blades seem derived iconographically from many of the temples and viragals from early times. There is a great deal of emphasis in the stylized character and flamboyance in many of the blade forms which while quite effective in artistic setting, was not likely practical in actual use. This is often the case when trying to understand the manner of actual use in these ancient forms, but in cases of traditional display they of course would not be required to serve other than for such ceremonial displays. Best Jim

8th December 2011, 04:52 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I had always thought of these as ceremonial, but a while ago I saw a similar one to the that posted. Slightly longer with a 'sickle-like' curve. The blade was heavy, fully sharpened and very business like. It was a single edged on the inside of the curve ....I wondered whether it could be used to 'hamstring' charging horses or had some other 'specialised' use Kind Regards David

8th December 2011, 05:38 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks to all for your thoughts. I have never believed in highly specialized functions: this one to cut horses' bridles, that one for hamstringing them, yet another for poking their eyes out from behind the corner on a moonless night. Swords are divided mainly into stabbing and slashing, but even those can cross-function. I am glad you saw another one like that; mine is also heavy, sharp and very business-like. I agree it is likely to be South Indian ( they always had a penchant for bizarre forms :-)). There must have been some kind of a pattern, but I guess we just do not know enough to pigeonhole it.... But this is true about a lot of other Eastern or African swords. Please, continue offering your thoughts and suggestions. Much appreciated.

8th December 2011, 06:07 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	I think a glance into Rawson and Egerton will show this type sword corresponding to iconographic styles and most likely from Deccan to southern India, and these as I had noted seem largely in a 'revival' sense representing the flamboyant forms of historic earlier times. Naturally, these are for visual effect and undulating or serpentine blades do not offer particularly any notable advantage in actual combative use, but most likely disadvantage in that regard. The idea of weapons for specific purpose such as 'hamstringing' etc.based on blade shapes is of course not in my opinion feasible but sounds interesting. Weapons intended for ceremonial, processional or rituals (not necessarily sacrificial) are inclined to promote dramatic effect, and references to such weapons being held in front of participating individuals in a bearing type position suggest these kinds of purposeful display.