Kattara for comments

[kahnjar1]

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi]Salaams,
Your question is possibly badly placed. With respect it is a commercial question and I cannot address it on the forum.

OK I see your point, so I will rephrase. Of the many "new" Omani swords you see, what % of these are true Omani, with flexible blade?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[QUOTE=kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams,
Your question is possibly badly placed. With respect it is a commercial question and I cannot address it on the forum.

OK I see your point, so I will rephrase. Of the many "new" Omani swords you see, what % of these are true Omani, with flexible blade?

Salaams,
Not counting the tourist items I would say all Omani new style (that is of the "supposed" European Trade Blade 17th C design) straight Kattara are fully flexible and true Omani by definition.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Hi Ibrahim,
What do you think of this one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400240311416#ht_1488wt_1348

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Hi Ibrahim,
What do you think of this one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400240311416#ht_1488wt_1348

Salaams~ I see that the auction is finished ~ So I will tell you exactly what that is.

Omani 751 AD Short Kattara Battlesword. Needless to say it is not Moorish.. but Omani. It is not 17th C design but 8thC. This thread deals with exactly this weapon. It is the early Omani Kattara. Someone has won a nice early Omani Kattara. The Hilt looks original. The blade may need a second look as some of the later blades were flatter and not as stiff... I would be looking for dot or dots and the famous wing shaped blade cross section(though dots are not vital). One of the quillons has the end missing... not a problem..Battle Damage ?..On these swords the hilt may be tubular or more originally eight sided. There ought to be three holes in the hilt The bottom two for holding the hilt together and the top one, just below the pommel, for a wrist strap.

The Omani Short Battle Sword (Kattara) 8thC. Pre-cursor to the long flexible (dancing) Omani Kattara of 17thC? which is supposedly said to be a European Trade Blade? but argued by me as a Local Omani Production
[ NOW UNDER THE SPOTLIGHT]
Nice Sword !!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is some shock and awe !!!

Salaams,

The Debate on dating The (New) (FLEXIBLE) Omani Kattara and its origins. Some important dates etc ;

1. The Portuguese did not leave Muscat until they were forced out in 1650. It is impossible, therefor, for bladed weapons to have entered Muscat in the first half i.e. 1600 to 1650.

2. In Europe iron was extremely expensive until a method of smelting was discovered using coke viz;

The iron industry benefited also from other early inventions of the 18th century. Iron was scarce and costly, and production was falling off because England's forests could not supply enough charcoal for smelting the ore. Ironmasters had long been experimenting with coal as a fuel for smelting. Finally the Darby family, after three generations of effort, succeeded with coal that had been transformed into coke. This created a new demand for coal and laid the foundation for the British coal industry.

3. It is unlikely that mass produced blades could have been attempted before 1780 because viz Following the development above ~ The next great steps were taken in the 1780s, when Henry Cort developed the processes of puddling and rolling. Puddling produced nearly pure malleable iron. Hand in hand with the adoption of the new inventions went the rapid development of the factory system of manufacture.

Therefor if the arguement for European Industrial Trade Blades 17th C collapses.

This is on going "hot" research... I also have to report that sword production in Ras Al Khaimah is only recent having interviewed the elders... Perhaps 40 or 50 years only. They are develish clever.. copiers.. though they do make good swords! and they are Omani. They copy all sorts of stamps... but are now written off as "original" manufacturers ~

The new source of original (New) Omani Kattara is Salalah ! and that brings with it the likely involvement of The Yemen and is well placed on the Camel Train framework for supply and distribution.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Michael Blalock]

Thats a good deal you got there Ariel.

[Jim McDougall]

I wanted to just comment on the overall status thus far as I understand, and by my perceptions of the development of these notably different kattara forms.

It does seem possible that the 'old' form with downturned quillons etc. established now as indiginous to the interior Oman, is evolved from early Abbasid swords of c.8th c. however without extant and provenanced examples we cannot be certain of the exact form chronologically. We can presume the form in accord with contemporary types however and estimate the approximate style and its traditional form being maintained.

The more familiar form of Omani kattara with cylindrical hilt and straight, double edged blade is it seems the focus of the discussion and whether it evolved around the arrival of European trade blades in the 17th century.

Elgood ("Arms and Armour of Arabia", p.18) states that the early form of Omani sword is frequently found with German blades of the 17th century suggesting that as a terminus a quo, however clearly that assumption seems in question at this point. It does show that German blades were present in this time apparantly in Oman. On p.16 referring to James Fraser at Ormuz in 1821 it is noted that the Omani garrison, resembling 'Arabs of Muscat' had broadswords and target, with many made at Yemen while greater part were from ports in the Meditteranean, many with Solingen and Andrea Ferara blades.
p.20, he notes that in Hormuz, the Arabs of Muscat shared with them very considerable trade with India where many Arabs had settled.
There were trade connections between Mysore and Tipu Sultan to Muscat from 1786 to his death in 1799 and it is noted that "...since its emergence from 16th century onwards Muscat had established commercial contacts indirectly with Western Europe via India". ("Trade and Empire in Muscat and Zanzibar: Roots of British Domination", Mohammed Reda Bhader, 1992, p.35).

It does seem that most emphasis on the presence of European blades recorded is from mid to latter 18th century into the early 19th in Arabia by Europeans, so it would be difficult to presume that the familiar guardless kattara had appeared in the 17th century. It does seem that the early form did exist with the German trade blades of the 17th century, however whether simply old blades, mounted later or Omani copies is unclear.

While there seems to be sufficient evidence for the import of European blades through India, Egypt and other ports on Muscat maritime trade routes, as well as via caravans in the interior through Jidda and other routes....it seems unlikely that the 'new' kattara evolved 'around' these blades. It does seem clear as noted in various reading in Elgood that there were indeed skilled and numerous sword makers in Arabia, certainly including regions being discussed. It seems that unfortunate observations by Richard Burton in the 19th c. may be the source for the impression that few or no swords were produced in Arabia.

I believe that much as in North Africa, more volume in imported material including blades resulted in the perception that most blades were imported, while of course a good number may have been produced locally. What I do find puzzling is why these well established makers in Oman or Muscat would imitate the European markings if notably proud of thier own wares. Much of the increase in volume of German blades to these colonial regions at the end of the 18th century was due to the upset of local makers for example in England of the German imports. In many cases the Solingen makers began to produce more for other markets to offset this deterence in their markets.
It is believed they did produce various blade types for varied clientele and markets, many of broadsword type to the Sahara and Sudan.

It seems that the 'old' or battle sword is a form which may exist 'in form' in degree traditionally from early types atavistically related to the Abbasid swords, and which may have used Persian and European blades in addition to Omani produced examples. These have remained in use primarily in the Nizwa regions and Omans interior and concurrent with the Muscat type guardless swords. I also wonder how much contact with the Ibadis in North Africa might have contributed to arrival of German blades in Oman.

The highly flexible blades of the Muscat or 'new' kattara, while exact period of development of the hilt style is unclear, are notably important in the Funun, or sword dance. This dynamic is noted by Fraser in 1821 (Elgood, p.16) where he notes the blades are made to 'sing' by jerk of the wrist while being held upright...apparantly before battle. This characteristic of blades is well known into medieval times and in India and other instances, but the details of ceremony related in other places is not clear here. It does seem that the dancing and ceremonial event is much related to martial skill and the use of the weapon in combat.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Michael Blalock

Thats a good deal you got there Ariel.

Thanks!
I got lucky, always wanted one of those, but they are usually very expensive:-)

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Here is some shock and awe !!!

Salaams,

The Debate on dating The (New) (FLEXIBLE) Omani Kattara and its origins. Some important dates etc ;

1. The Portuguese did not leave Muscat until they were forced out in 1850. It is impossible, therefor, for bladed weapons to have entered Muscat in the first half i.e. 1600 to 1650.

2. In Europe iron was extremely expensive until a method of smelting was discovered using coke viz;

The iron industry benefited also from other early inventions of the 18th century. Iron was scarce and costly, and production was falling off because England's forests could not supply enough charcoal for smelting the ore. Ironmasters had long been experimenting with coal as a fuel for smelting. Finally the Darby family, after three generations of effort, succeeded with coal that had been transformed into coke. This created a new demand for coal and laid the foundation for the British coal industry.

3. It is unlikely that mass produced blades could have been attempted before 1780 because viz Following the development above ~ The next great steps were taken in the 1780s, when Henry Cort developed the processes of puddling and rolling. Puddling produced nearly pure malleable iron. Hand in hand with the adoption of the new inventions went the rapid development of the factory system of manufacture.

Therefor if the arguement for European Industrial Trade Blades 17th C collapses.

This is on going "hot" research... I also have to report that sword production in Ras Al Khaimah is only recent having interviewed the elders... Perhaps 40 or 50 years only. They are develish clever.. copiers.. though they do make good swords! and they are Omani. They copy all sorts of stamps... but are now written off as "original" manufacturers ~

The new source of original (New) Omani Kattara is Salalah ! and that brings with it the likely involvement of The Yemen and is well placed on the Camel Train framework for supply and distribution.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salam Alaikum,

First, I do not think that the european industrial blade argument is dismantled in your answer. Your answer does not really answers the question actually.

It must be noted that the majority of european trade blades do not come from england, rather they come from Almajar (Hungary) or Germany. As far as I know, Germany imported steel from Sweden and there wasnt really any issue there. Your answer however, focuses on England which blade's are rare here (wilkinson blades being mostly sold to ethiopia but those are easy to tell apart from other blades)

What I find interesting in the Kattara is that it stayed landlocked in Oman and what is now the UAE... why was this form not adopted by other arabs? even though they were connected tribally (Bani Kaab tribe being the most obvious, as it exist in alBasra, Kuwait, AlAhwaz, Qatar and Oman/UAE) Why was the Badawi/syrian hilt style become dominant? keep in mind that there are straight blades with badawi hilt, they are called Garda.

Now to my opinion regarding your quest, I think its very good and respect worthy, but as an advice, when it comes to weapons and other important goods, forget about what might seem as religious barriers :-)

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Alaikum,

First, I do not think that the european industrial blade argument is dismantled in your answer. Your answer does not really answers the question actually.

It must be noted that the majority of european trade blades do not come from england, rather they come from Almajar (Hungary) or Germany. As far as I know, Germany imported steel from Sweden and there wasnt really any issue there. Your answer however, focuses on England which blade's are rare here (wilkinson blades being mostly sold to ethiopia but those are easy to tell apart from other blades)

What I find interesting in the Kattara is that it stayed landlocked in Oman and what is now the UAE... why was this form not adopted by other arabs? even though they were connected tribally (Bani Kaab tribe being the most obvious, as it exist in alBasra, Kuwait, AlAhwaz, Qatar and Oman/UAE) Why was the Badawi/syrian hilt style become dominant? keep in mind that there are straight blades with badawi hilt, they are called Garda.

Now to my opinion regarding your quest, I think its very good and respect worthy, but as an advice, when it comes to weapons and other important goods, forget about what might seem as religious barriers :-)

Actually we do need to focus on Germany which is where most of the trade blades were from. England has never really done much in exporting blades except for later in the 19th century to colonial regions. Solingen, on the Wupper River is strategically located for its ore. Sweden was noted for cheaper iron exported much later in the 19th century and unsure of why Germany would have brought that in.
It has never been entirely clear about Hungarian blades, and actually it seems many of these were actually from Solingen or Styria, though there were a few makers, certainly insufficient for export. It does seem that in Arabia the 'Magyar' blades were much favored, but via Syria . These were sabre blades, not broadswords as in most Omani kattara. The larger part of the curved sabre blades came in the 19th century with Caucasian and other European imports.

I think the kattara was far from landlocked as far as the new form. These are well known in Zanzibar as well as well into Africa;s trade networks. It is tempting to associate the cylindrical guard Manding sabres of Mali as well as thed Maasai seme' of Kenya, which may have some degree of influence via Muscat merchants. The 'old' form seems to have remained in place in Omans interior regions contemporary with the new forms on the coast.

The markings phenomenon to me seems very much in line with the blade makers in Sudan where 'Kasallawi' makers produced kaskaras from the 1960s to present. The copied markings are similar but usually distinguishable from old ones by the blade context.

The Wilkinson blades were indeed produced for Abyssinia in the latter 19th century and most notably 1930s. Germany also produced blades for this market. Many of these blades ended up in Yemen where they were remounted in San'a.

We are focused on commercial and trade aspects, nothing to do with religion, so lets keep it that way OK .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Alaikum,

First, I do not think that the european industrial blade argument is dismantled in your answer. Your answer does not really answers the question actually.

It must be noted that the majority of european trade blades do not come from england, rather they come from Almajar (Hungary) or Germany. As far as I know, Germany imported steel from Sweden and there wasnt really any issue there. Your answer however, focuses on England which blade's are rare here (wilkinson blades being mostly sold to ethiopia but those are easy to tell apart from other blades)

What I find interesting in the Kattara is that it stayed landlocked in Oman and what is now the UAE... why was this form not adopted by other arabs? even though they were connected tribally (Bani Kaab tribe being the most obvious, as it exist in alBasra, Kuwait, AlAhwaz, Qatar and Oman/UAE) Why was the Badawi/syrian hilt style become dominant? keep in mind that there are straight blades with badawi hilt, they are called Garda.

Now to my opinion regarding your quest, I think its very good and respect worthy, but as an advice, when it comes to weapons and other important goods, forget about what might seem as religious barriers :-)

Salaams,

If you have a look at my letter you will see that I have questioned the 17th C European Trade Blade since assuming these blades were produced on mass in the Industrial Revolution they cannot have been made before a certain date. 17th C is far too early. (German invention and British went on at about the same pace whilst in India the Industrial Revolution did not arrive until the early 20th C.) That in no way rules out early foreign cottage industry production except they would have been a lot more expensive.

Having said that I am looking for local production in areas like Salalah and Nizwa but I have an open door on other regions. It is entirely possible that European Trade Blades entered Oman before 1821(Frazer Hormuz) Local blades could have been produced in tandem. It may also transpire as myth. ~ I need to see it proven.

My analysis of The Funoon and The Razha and Ibathi Islamic historical facts are practically the only reference to religion in fathoming out this weapons provenance and without it we would all still be in the dark regarding the Omani Kattara. Politics and Religion are used only in a purely historical sense after all History would be a very thin pamphlet without the driving force of either.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ariel

Hi Ibrahim,
What do you think of this one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400240311416#ht_1488wt_1348

Before it falls through the cracks.....

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Before it falls through the cracks.....

Salaams freebooter is there a stamp on the blade?

This is the classic old Omani stiff pointed short sword...Sayf..Tied to the origin of species at 751 AD and rolling on for over 1000 years. Local name for the Omani Short ... Sayf Yamani.

The forerunner to the flexible sword. Both called Sayf and both using the Terrs shield.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; I have two like this with no stamp. I suspect Yemen as the manufacturing base or Nizwa... Investigating the latter now. The 3 holes in the hilt for securing the hilt to a wooden core whilst the 3rd near the octagonal pommel for a wriststrap. See my comparison on this thread to the Abassid weapon.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams freebooter is there a stamp on the blade?

This is the classic old Omani stiff pointed short sword...Sayf..Tied to the origin of species at 751 AD and rolling on for over 1000 years. Local name for the Omani Short ... Sayf Yamani.

The forerunner to the flexible sword. Both called Sayf and both using the Terrs shield.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; I have two like this with no stamp. I suspect Yemen as the manufacturing base or Nizwa... Investigating the latter now. The 3 holes in the hilt for securing the hilt to a wooden core whilst the 3rd near the octagonal pommel for a wriststrap. See my comparison on this thread to the Abassid weapon.

Dear Ibrahiim, I have simply provided the images from a previous link posted...the sword is I believe Ariels

There sabre version of the Oman sword has been discussed as perhaps being influenced by EU and Caucasian blades.
Was silverwork on these sabres also "perhaps" influenced through this trade? I ask as I have a fine Omani sabre with the correct "native" blade that has silverwork in the style of, although not executed as well as Dagestan silver work found on some Shashka.

Thanks for a wonderful and sometimes mindblowing in depth discussion.

Gav

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Dear Ibrahiim, I have simply provided the images from a previous link posted...the sword is I believe Ariels

There sabre version of the Oman sword has been discussed as perhaps being influenced by EU and Caucasian blades.
Was silverwork on these sabres also "perhaps" influenced through this trade? I ask as I have a fine Omani sabre with the correct "native" blade that has silverwork in the style of, although not executed as well as Dagestan silver work found on some Shashka.

Thanks for a wonderful and sometimes mindblowing in depth discussion.

Gav

Salaams Gav~ Last point first; Omani Silver. Down the ages many countries have influenced Omani Design including Greek, Viking(Early traders in the Med ) adjacent Arab countries and in particular Indian influence on the Oman Coast. Omani silver also contains coins from European countries mainly Austrian and occasionally French Napoleonic coins plus Indian Rupees...As to the silver on the sword We need a photo please? I doubt the Caucaz silver style link ...

I have seen and discussed the possible link connecting Omani Swords to Caucas but that appears on a different weapon altogether from the Sayf being discussed and is clearly a fact. I have a few of those blades but there is no link between them and the so called European Trade Blade i.e. The Omani Long flexible SAYF that I can find.

The old Omani Sayf which apparently Ariel has did appear to have a stamp and I have asked for that previously to be shown clearly so we can examine that but it has not appeared as yet...Perhaps Ariel may be able to show that. It carries the local name Sayf Yamani. I am looking at two ideas; firstly that it was made in the Yemen and secondly that it was made in Nizwa or both or neither. We may never know. A clear view of the stamp would help.

As a spanner in the works there appears to have been a late quite thin blade replacement given to the old hilt perhaps 17th C which I have seen in the Muscat Souk last year(though I ignored that) and I saw a few years ago.

It is on the hit list.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.