Types of Damascus Pattern

Richard Furrer · 20th October 2011, 07:55 PM

I make wootz, I make bloomery steel, I make European crucible steel (Huntsman), I make blister and shear steel (I'll be doing studies into Chinese cast iron decarburization next year)....I have conducted and had done at labs actual scientific testing on this material I make as well as the old blades I have. Some of this is posted on my website and some is not.
Simply because such information has not been released to the public does not mean that smiths are not conduction them. Frankly, I see little benefit to casting the results to the wind...folk who like old blades rarely buy new blades and folk who buy new blades have an interest in old blades...to a point.
As to "better" it matters little as those battle have been fought and won/lost before. I still get paper cuts and all my blades can cut paper, I get wood splinters and all by blades can shave wood...humans are soft and squishy..how "good" does an edge need to be to injure us? How good does a helmet need to be to keep the one under the bucket from getting cut?

As to hardness...it depends on the heat treatment of the blade and its carbon levels..nothing else. Without a doubt the as quenched hardness of a blade is dependent upon carbon level only.
I have hardness levels on old wootz that runs the gambit from 20 rockwell C to 58 RC..and the same for European and Japanese blades of the same time frames....hardness it seems is as variable as the style of blade and its culture.
If I were to make a general statement it would be that
"generally, hand made blades made from batch process steel (including European) was highly variable and that each needs to be individually evaluated." It would be nice to say otherwise as it would make evaluation simple, but life simply is not simple.

I straightened a 15th cent wootz blade a few years ago for a collector and it skated a file on the edge...I have done the same with European blades...and I have also had them soft as steel can get....go figure.

I have an assadullah here now in my collection...it is in good shape for now....but every now and then I get the urge....
Still looking for a running fox or other similar to test....

I can made a modern alloy steel perform poorly...and many current smiths can accomplish this without trying...or indeed intending to do so.

As to edge to edge contact proving one blade being superior to another..hogwash. Blades are dynamic things..hardness is but one of the criteria...which is what keeps this craft interesting...and frustrating.

Ric

Jeff D · 21st October 2011, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

I make wootz, I make bloomery steel, I make European crucible steel (Huntsman), I make blister and shear steel (I'll be doing studies into Chinese cast iron decarburization next year)....I have conducted and had done at labs actual scientific testing on this material I make as well as the old blades I have. Some of this is posted on my website and some is not.
Simply because such information has not been released to the public does not mean that smiths are not conduction them. Frankly, I see little benefit to casting the results to the wind...folk who like old blades rarely buy new blades and folk who buy new blades have an interest in old blades...to a point.
As to "better" it matters little as those battle have been fought and won/lost before. I still get paper cuts and all my blades can cut paper, I get wood splinters and all by blades can shave wood...humans are soft and squishy..how "good" does an edge need to be to injure us? How good does a helmet need to be to keep the one under the bucket from getting cut?

As to hardness...it depends on the heat treatment of the blade and its carbon levels..nothing else. Without a doubt the as quenched hardness of a blade is dependent upon carbon level only.
I have hardness levels on old wootz that runs the gambit from 20 rockwell C to 58 RC..and the same for European and Japanese blades of the same time frames....hardness it seems is as variable as the style of blade and its culture.
If I were to make a general statement it would be that
"generally, hand made blades made from batch process steel (including European) was highly variable and that each needs to be individually evaluated." It would be nice to say otherwise as it would make evaluation simple, but life simply is not simple.

I straightened a 15th cent wootz blade a few years ago for a collector and it skated a file on the edge...I have done the same with European blades...and I have also had them soft as steel can get....go figure.

I have an assadullah here now in my collection...it is in good shape for now....but every now and then I get the urge....
Still looking for a running fox or other similar to test....

I can made a modern alloy steel perform poorly...and many current smiths can accomplish this without trying...or indeed intending to do so.

As to edge to edge contact proving one blade being superior to another..hogwash. Blades are dynamic things..hardness is but one of the criteria...which is what keeps this craft interesting...and frustrating.

Ric

Where's the LIKE button?

Jeff

Gt Obach · 21st October 2011, 02:55 PM

we can type our fingers to the bone, in the end, people will believe what they will
english steel, wootz steel, bloom steel, patternwelded steel is the best sword steel
--- and even amongst the categories there is love/hate for the varieties
wootz - woodgrain, laddered, roses, sham, add in all the Al-Kindi varieties and even regional divides

it just boggles my mind... how blown out of proportion it can get

Ric has a way of saying it well and as you can see, covering the many varieties of steel making ... very good to read

" humans are soft and squishy "

there is no hiding from this

by the bye, my choice for wootz is because i like the steel... all the varieties of mentioned steels will make excellent sword steels capable of being fantastic for what they are tasked to do... provided the smith does his/her part to make it so

A. G. Maisey · 21st October 2011, 09:44 PM

Thank you Richard.

I've been following this thread and have felt inclined to comment several times, but others have already covered the bases, so there is little I could add.

It is refreshing to read a calmly objective post such as yours .

My compliments.

Alan.

laEspadaAncha · 21st October 2011, 10:25 PM

I am sure I speak on behalf of countless forumites "lurking" on this thread when I express my gratitude to those involved in this discussion. While having an existing understanding of the difference between pattern welded and wootz, this has been highly educational. So thanks...

In digging through some dead threads, I came across this nugget form 2005:

FYI Brief History of Crucile Damascus Steel

A great read...

Richard Furrer · 21st October 2011, 11:20 PM

I really look forward to Dr. Feuerbach's book when she puts it out.
I recently ran a Merv crucible run here in the shop..learned a lot even though it failed...nothing to do with Ann's input ..more operator error on my end with a new technology.

I am as opinionated as anyone..its just that, working alone as I do, I find that nobody in the room cares much what I think..and the steel cares even less.

A walk through a museum is a different experience for you than it is for me. I am looking at display as a schoolroom..items I need to deconstruct and make my own... techniques to develop and make my own. A single display case often has more work in it that I will produce in my lifetime and of a level I may only reach when my journey is near its end.
Besides...hot steel is my focus, the blade as a technology..as a process...not the many faceted other aspects of what we call arms. I leave that to you educated lot, from whom I have gleaned much.

Ric....who's interest is most often gone once the work becomes room temperature.

Pukka Bundook · 17th November 2011, 03:13 PM

Sorry about bringing up an older thread, but the original question was about gun barrels, ...Not swords.
As we all know, the properties desired in a barrel are opposit to what is required in an edged weapon.
A iron mix is much better than a hard cutlery steel...which would likely fail very quickly if made into a barrel!
I do not think Woots per se, was used for gun barrels.
What was required for the latter, was an iron/steel twisted ribbon, wound around a mandrel to produce a pattern, the pattern complexity depending on the smith and price afforded by the customer.
A plain iron barrel will suffice, but the iron/steel barrel is more elastic ..and looks better!
Some jezails have very high quality barrels, and were renowned for accuracy as well.
Also some of these barrels are much older than the locks put on them, as many started out as matchlocks, and were updated with European flint or percussion locks.
RDGAC,....(Nuts'n'??)

I'll look out some pics and PM you.

Richard.

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20th October 2011, 07:55 PM	#1
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	I make wootz, I make bloomery steel, I make European crucible steel (Huntsman), I make blister and shear steel (I'll be doing studies into Chinese cast iron decarburization next year)....I have conducted and had done at labs actual scientific testing on this material I make as well as the old blades I have. Some of this is posted on my website and some is not. Simply because such information has not been released to the public does not mean that smiths are not conduction them. Frankly, I see little benefit to casting the results to the wind...folk who like old blades rarely buy new blades and folk who buy new blades have an interest in old blades...to a point. As to "better" it matters little as those battle have been fought and won/lost before. I still get paper cuts and all my blades can cut paper, I get wood splinters and all by blades can shave wood...humans are soft and squishy..how "good" does an edge need to be to injure us? How good does a helmet need to be to keep the one under the bucket from getting cut? As to hardness...it depends on the heat treatment of the blade and its carbon levels..nothing else. Without a doubt the as quenched hardness of a blade is dependent upon carbon level only. I have hardness levels on old wootz that runs the gambit from 20 rockwell C to 58 RC..and the same for European and Japanese blades of the same time frames....hardness it seems is as variable as the style of blade and its culture. If I were to make a general statement it would be that "generally, hand made blades made from batch process steel (including European) was highly variable and that each needs to be individually evaluated." It would be nice to say otherwise as it would make evaluation simple, but life simply is not simple. I straightened a 15th cent wootz blade a few years ago for a collector and it skated a file on the edge...I have done the same with European blades...and I have also had them soft as steel can get....go figure. I have an assadullah here now in my collection...it is in good shape for now....but every now and then I get the urge.... Still looking for a running fox or other similar to test.... I can made a modern alloy steel perform poorly...and many current smiths can accomplish this without trying...or indeed intending to do so. As to edge to edge contact proving one blade being superior to another..hogwash. Blades are dynamic things..hardness is but one of the criteria...which is what keeps this craft interesting...and frustrating. Ric

21st October 2011, 02:55 PM	#3
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	we can type our fingers to the bone, in the end, people will believe what they will english steel, wootz steel, bloom steel, patternwelded steel is the best sword steel --- and even amongst the categories there is love/hate for the varieties wootz - woodgrain, laddered, roses, sham, add in all the Al-Kindi varieties and even regional divides it just boggles my mind... how blown out of proportion it can get Ric has a way of saying it well and as you can see, covering the many varieties of steel making ... very good to read " humans are soft and squishy " there is no hiding from this by the bye, my choice for wootz is because i like the steel... all the varieties of mentioned steels will make excellent sword steels capable of being fantastic for what they are tasked to do... provided the smith does his/her part to make it so

21st October 2011, 09:44 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thank you Richard. I've been following this thread and have felt inclined to comment several times, but others have already covered the bases, so there is little I could add. It is refreshing to read a calmly objective post such as yours . My compliments. Alan.

21st October 2011, 10:25 PM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	I am sure I speak on behalf of countless forumites "lurking" on this thread when I express my gratitude to those involved in this discussion. While having an existing understanding of the difference between pattern welded and wootz, this has been highly educational. So thanks... In digging through some dead threads, I came across this nugget form 2005: FYI Brief History of Crucile Damascus Steel A great read...

21st October 2011, 11:20 PM	#6
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	I really look forward to Dr. Feuerbach's book when she puts it out. I recently ran a Merv crucible run here in the shop..learned a lot even though it failed...nothing to do with Ann's input ..more operator error on my end with a new technology. I am as opinionated as anyone..its just that, working alone as I do, I find that nobody in the room cares much what I think..and the steel cares even less. A walk through a museum is a different experience for you than it is for me. I am looking at display as a schoolroom..items I need to deconstruct and make my own... techniques to develop and make my own. A single display case often has more work in it that I will produce in my lifetime and of a level I may only reach when my journey is near its end. Besides...hot steel is my focus, the blade as a technology..as a process...not the many faceted other aspects of what we call arms. I leave that to you educated lot, from whom I have gleaned much. Ric....who's interest is most often gone once the work becomes room temperature.

17th November 2011, 03:13 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Sorry about bringing up an older thread, but the original question was about gun barrels, ...Not swords. As we all know, the properties desired in a barrel are opposit to what is required in an edged weapon. A iron mix is much better than a hard cutlery steel...which would likely fail very quickly if made into a barrel! I do not think Woots per se, was used for gun barrels. What was required for the latter, was an iron/steel twisted ribbon, wound around a mandrel to produce a pattern, the pattern complexity depending on the smith and price afforded by the customer. A plain iron barrel will suffice, but the iron/steel barrel is more elastic ..and looks better! Some jezails have very high quality barrels, and were renowned for accuracy as well. Also some of these barrels are much older than the locks put on them, as many started out as matchlocks, and were updated with European flint or percussion locks. RDGAC,....(Nuts'n'??) I'll look out some pics and PM you. Richard.