Types of Damascus Pattern

ALEX · 18th October 2011, 11:10 AM

assuming you're asking about wootz, and not Damascus steel in general...would like to give you a quick wootz collectors advice:-)
there are 2 types of wootz: good wootz (high contrast, bold and active pattern), and bad wootz (low contrast with weak activity and/or losses of pattern). on the picture: second from the top is sham (low contrast) and third is v. good wootz with mechanically added ladder pattern:
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...9.fig.2.lg.gif
Granted, there are many other variations and even more opinions. L. Figiel "On Damascus Steel" and Sachse's "Damascus Steel" books cover the topic well, but for wootz the first book is better, get it.... and don't forget to search the forum for various wootz patterns:-) Good luck!

ariel · 18th October 2011, 12:24 PM

An addition: "good" wootz ( high contrast) and "bad" wootz ( low contrast) are considered such only in esthetic terms. Mechanically, they may be soft, brittle, and otherwise defective in technical terms, irrespective of their superficial luster. Wootz is a classic example of beauty being skin-deep. Not for nothing european monosteel blades were prized by the natives in India for their fighting qualities, whereas wootz blades were brought to Europe to be worn on parades and exhibited in the museums. Ironic, isn't it?

A.alnakkas · 18th October 2011, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

An addition: "good" wootz ( high contrast) and "bad" wootz ( low contrast) are considered such only in esthetic terms. Mechanically, they may be soft, brittle, and otherwise defective in technical terms, irrespective of their superficial luster. Wootz is a classic example of beauty being skin-deep. Not for nothing european monosteel blades were prized by the natives in India for their fighting qualities, whereas wootz blades were brought to Europe to be worn on parades and exhibited in the museums. Ironic, isn't it?

That very much sums up my opinion on wootz. Arabs have valued european blades (especially clauberg) and even put them as superior to some wootz varieties. Though Indian wootz is considered the best for some reason, I heard that the saudi executioner uses indian wootz (Jawhar) blades, but that could be rubbish as I heard it from a random person :-)

On topic: Should we make this with picture examples? Sometimes I have a hard time knowing the difference between Sham (Does this mean "fake" or sham as in the place, the levante?) and low contrast wootz so any pictures and some info would be nice !

Excellent idea :-)

Gt Obach · 18th October 2011, 05:14 PM

Wootz was one of the finest steels of its time ! both beauty and strength
-it does its job well
- so it is reflected in the high prices for these blades

[QUOTE=A.alnakkas]That very much sums up my opinion on wootz. Arabs have valued european blades (especially clauberg) and even put them as superior to some wootz varieties. Though Indian wootz is considered the best for some reason, I heard that the saudi executioner uses indian wootz (Jawhar) blades, but that could be rubbish as I heard it from a random person :-)

yes, Rubbish indeed !... what qualifies that person as an expert in steel.. Nothing !!!

to the Op, what type of damascus steel are we talking about... either patternwelded, or crucible steel ? both a fundamentally different

RDGAC · 18th October 2011, 09:15 PM

Any and all. I address this to everyone, actually: in essence, I'm very, very confused about Damascus and wootz, the relationships between the two, and how one tells the various varieties apart. My ignorance is doubtless, which is annoying since I've a watered barrel of some sort propped up in a tube behind my right shoulder!

- Meredydd

ariel · 19th October 2011, 01:26 AM

Well, none of us is a true wootz expert, because there is not a single man alive on this planet who could reliably produce long wootz blades comparable in their esthetic appeal to the examples from Figiel's book.

I think Mr. Obach's tirade about qualifications as an expert was related to the Saudi executioner. Well, he actually used his wootz blade for it's intended reason. That makes him an expert par excellence:-)

Gt Obach · 19th October 2011, 03:40 AM

tirade: a protracted speech usually marked by intemperate, vituperative, or harshly censorious language

so i disagree with you.. as i'm sure you run into alot of that

i don't feel your expert is qualified for much of anything... unless a Saudi execution envolves combat ? perhaps he is a direct descendant from a soldier and can commune with his ancient relative .... perhaps

where is my crystal ball

Gt Obach · 19th October 2011, 03:52 AM

Hi RD

its actually simple...

1) Wootz damascus is a crucible steel... some ingredients are melted in a clay crucible till liquid then cooled slowly in the vessel. The goal is to produce a ultra high carbon, dendritic steel. The ingot is then forged out into a blade using a low forge temp inorder to grow the carbide pattern. The blade is then etched and you see the waterings

2) Forgewelded damascus- several pieces of bloom steel are stacked up in a billet... (resembling a sandwich) the billet is then fluxed and forgewelded together and drawn out .... cut... restacked and repeat
- pattern is then manipulated and designs are made
- eg...like those Viking sword with twistcore

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Any and all. I address this to everyone, actually: in essence, I'm very, very confused about Damascus and wootz, the relationships between the two, and how one tells the various varieties apart. My ignorance is doubtless, which is annoying since I've a watered barrel of some sort propped up in a tube behind my right shoulder!

- Meredydd

ariel · 19th October 2011, 04:45 AM

We have already spent inordinate amount of time arguing about relative mechanical value of wootz vs. european monosteel. Whereas the latter examples coming from high quality places were uniformly good, wootz had inordinate variaility and was often pretty substandard mechanically: witness rubbed off pattern on some Figiel's blades simply as a result of contact with softwood scabbard inserts. Not for nothing did Al Kindi and some Indian authors spend so much effort explaining the features of good and bad blades. They knew that there was a big skeleton in the closet.
How would wootz compare to good european monosteels? Who knows? It had never been tested edge to edge, nobody is willing to sacrifice his Assadulla to be cut for analysis, and nobody would be willing to subject his Kalbali to rigorous european-style testing ( slamming the blade against massive woodblock, dropping the blade point first on a sheet of iron or bending it repeatedly ). In limited tests ( Zschokke), wootz blades had incredible variability in terms of chemistry and pretty low hardness. There were good wootz blades and very bad wootz blades. Thus, the mere fact of wootz-iness gave no guarantee that the blade would perform well. As to their skin-deep beauty, - here I agree 100%: wootz is pretty. I suspect that even that is an exaggeration: mostly the prettiest blades, never tested in battle, survived. The multitude of cheaper ones just perished like anything else that was made by lesser masters for mass production.

Why do contemporary masters still are trying to uncover the "secret of wootz"? The Everest syndrome: because it is there. Just to prove that they can reproduce the pretty pattern. More power to them. But is there any practical reason? Likely not. Modern alloys will beat wootz 100:0 any time.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th October 2011, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

Hi RD

its actually simple...

1) Wootz damascus is a crucible steel... some ingredients are melted in a clay crucible till liquid then cooled slowly in the vessel. The goal is to produce a ultra high carbon, dendritic steel. The ingot is then forged out into a blade using a low forge temp inorder to grow the carbide pattern. The blade is then etched and you see the waterings

2) Forgewelded damascus- several pieces of bloom steel are stacked up in a billet... (resembling a sandwich) the billet is then fluxed and forgewelded together and drawn out .... cut... restacked and repeat
- pattern is then manipulated and designs are made
- eg...like those Viking sword with twistcore

Salaams GT Obach.
I was scratching about trying to define the difference beteen the two techniques so thank you for setting it down so simply...and the correct small d in damascus denoting technique not place.. Excellent ! Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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18th October 2011, 11:10 AM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	assuming you're asking about wootz, and not Damascus steel in general...would like to give you a quick wootz collectors advice:-) there are 2 types of wootz: good wootz (high contrast, bold and active pattern), and bad wootz (low contrast with weak activity and/or losses of pattern). on the picture: second from the top is sham (low contrast) and third is v. good wootz with mechanically added ladder pattern: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...9.fig.2.lg.gif Granted, there are many other variations and even more opinions. L. Figiel "On Damascus Steel" and Sachse's "Damascus Steel" books cover the topic well, but for wootz the first book is better, get it.... and don't forget to search the forum for various wootz patterns:-) Good luck!

18th October 2011, 12:24 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	An addition: "good" wootz ( high contrast) and "bad" wootz ( low contrast) are considered such only in esthetic terms. Mechanically, they may be soft, brittle, and otherwise defective in technical terms, irrespective of their superficial luster. Wootz is a classic example of beauty being skin-deep. Not for nothing european monosteel blades were prized by the natives in India for their fighting qualities, whereas wootz blades were brought to Europe to be worn on parades and exhibited in the museums. Ironic, isn't it?

18th October 2011, 05:14 PM	#4
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Wootz was one of the finest steels of its time ! both beauty and strength -it does its job well - so it is reflected in the high prices for these blades [QUOTE=A.alnakkas]That very much sums up my opinion on wootz. Arabs have valued european blades (especially clauberg) and even put them as superior to some wootz varieties. Though Indian wootz is considered the best for some reason, I heard that the saudi executioner uses indian wootz (Jawhar) blades, but that could be rubbish as I heard it from a random person :-) yes, Rubbish indeed !... what qualifies that person as an expert in steel.. Nothing !!! to the Op, what type of damascus steel are we talking about... either patternwelded, or crucible steel ? both a fundamentally different

18th October 2011, 09:15 PM	#5
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Any and all. I address this to everyone, actually: in essence, I'm very, very confused about Damascus and wootz, the relationships between the two, and how one tells the various varieties apart. My ignorance is doubtless, which is annoying since I've a watered barrel of some sort propped up in a tube behind my right shoulder! - Meredydd

19th October 2011, 01:26 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, none of us is a true wootz expert, because there is not a single man alive on this planet who could reliably produce long wootz blades comparable in their esthetic appeal to the examples from Figiel's book. I think Mr. Obach's tirade about qualifications as an expert was related to the Saudi executioner. Well, he actually used his wootz blade for it's intended reason. That makes him an expert par excellence:-)

19th October 2011, 03:40 AM	#7
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	tirade: a protracted speech usually marked by intemperate, vituperative, or harshly censorious language so i disagree with you.. as i'm sure you run into alot of that i don't feel your expert is qualified for much of anything... unless a Saudi execution envolves combat ? perhaps he is a direct descendant from a soldier and can commune with his ancient relative .... perhaps where is my crystal ball

19th October 2011, 04:45 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	We have already spent inordinate amount of time arguing about relative mechanical value of wootz vs. european monosteel. Whereas the latter examples coming from high quality places were uniformly good, wootz had inordinate variaility and was often pretty substandard mechanically: witness rubbed off pattern on some Figiel's blades simply as a result of contact with softwood scabbard inserts. Not for nothing did Al Kindi and some Indian authors spend so much effort explaining the features of good and bad blades. They knew that there was a big skeleton in the closet. How would wootz compare to good european monosteels? Who knows? It had never been tested edge to edge, nobody is willing to sacrifice his Assadulla to be cut for analysis, and nobody would be willing to subject his Kalbali to rigorous european-style testing ( slamming the blade against massive woodblock, dropping the blade point first on a sheet of iron or bending it repeatedly ). In limited tests ( Zschokke), wootz blades had incredible variability in terms of chemistry and pretty low hardness. There were good wootz blades and very bad wootz blades. Thus, the mere fact of wootz-iness gave no guarantee that the blade would perform well. As to their skin-deep beauty, - here I agree 100%: wootz is pretty. I suspect that even that is an exaggeration: mostly the prettiest blades, never tested in battle, survived. The multitude of cheaper ones just perished like anything else that was made by lesser masters for mass production. Why do contemporary masters still are trying to uncover the "secret of wootz"? The Everest syndrome: because it is there. Just to prove that they can reproduce the pretty pattern. More power to them. But is there any practical reason? Likely not. Modern alloys will beat wootz 100:0 any time.