Oman, Morocco or Zanzibar?

TVV · 19th August 2011, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

This does not seem correct to me.
Certainly the blade on these is the same as we've seen on some Mooroccan genui (basically a seeminly European style multigrooved single edged dagger blade), however, the I/H shaped handles much more closely resemble those of jambiya (per se). This seems to argue for middle eastern, rather than north African.

Tom,

I would actually argue that the sboula hilt is much closer to a baselard than to a jambiya. As far as the origin of the weapon, the picture linked below of a soldier with a Moroccan musket seems to support a Maghrebi origin, and the Zanzibar attribution seems to be a mistake that has been perpetuated with little supporting evidence.

Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2011, 05:36 PM

Thank you so much Teodor for the corroboration. My point in bringing up these other weapons is that the influence of these European weapons from trade networks, primarily North Italian into Tunis and other North African points brought many of these into the cultural sphere. It has been suggested to me in discussion of the important reference by C.Buttin, that the cinquedea actually influenced the hilt of the koummya, and we know that the 'janwi' comes with Genoan influence. Buttin was also support for my contention in the Zanzibar misidentification.

All the best,
Jim

tom hyle · 19th August 2011, 09:35 PM

Please do argue that it's more like a baselard, because I don't see how? Certainly it's a tempting comparison, with the (as I noted) basically European dagger blade these have, but
the soldered-on (rather than soldered then
assembled onto the substrate) metal that often nearly fully wraps these grips is not usual on
Swiss weapons AFAIK, whereas it is rather
common on jambiy and shabrias (a similar type of work is common on the central ferule of some koumiyas, but almost always with additional filigree or other applied decoration not common to my experience of the short swords in question). Furthermore, the overall shape of the grip is seen on jambiya per se (htypically the pommel is less broad), and also on other African swords and daggers (lately I've seen a couple where the tips of the upper guard/pommel were wrapped in spiralled wire on this forum; do you remember them? They had straight DE blades)
All things are possible, but these hilts do not resemble any other Mooroccan work I'm familiar with, while they do resemble Middle Eastern Arab work.
The photo is interesting. Thanks.

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19th August 2011, 05:36 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you so much Teodor for the corroboration. My point in bringing up these other weapons is that the influence of these European weapons from trade networks, primarily North Italian into Tunis and other North African points brought many of these into the cultural sphere. It has been suggested to me in discussion of the important reference by C.Buttin, that the cinquedea actually influenced the hilt of the koummya, and we know that the 'janwi' comes with Genoan influence. Buttin was also support for my contention in the Zanzibar misidentification. All the best, Jim

19th August 2011, 09:35 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Please do argue that it's more like a baselard, because I don't see how? Certainly it's a tempting comparison, with the (as I noted) basically European dagger blade these have, but the soldered-on (rather than soldered then assembled onto the substrate) metal that often nearly fully wraps these grips is not usual on Swiss weapons AFAIK, whereas it is rather common on jambiy and shabrias (a similar type of work is common on the central ferule of some koumiyas, but almost always with additional filigree or other applied decoration not common to my experience of the short swords in question). Furthermore, the overall shape of the grip is seen on jambiya per se (htypically the pommel is less broad), and also on other African swords and daggers (lately I've seen a couple where the tips of the upper guard/pommel were wrapped in spiralled wire on this forum; do you remember them? They had straight DE blades) All things are possible, but these hilts do not resemble any other Mooroccan work I'm familiar with, while they do resemble Middle Eastern Arab work. The photo is interesting. Thanks.