Unknown weapon

VANDOO · 5th August 2011, 11:45 PM

RAN ACROSS A EXAMPLE OF THIS FORM WHILE SEARCHING STONES, SEE PAGE 365 PLATE 459. FIG 4, SIAM RATTAN TRIMMING KNIFE 24IN. LONG, BLADE 8.5 IN.

A. G. Maisey · 6th August 2011, 03:09 AM

Barry, thank you for bringing this to our attention, but I feel that we are wandering away from the example that Sajen posted and that began this thread.

The one that I had , and have posted a pic of, was most certainly no tool, it was a very high quality, very refined implement, that carried quite a lot of gold. The daughter of an Indian Brahmin identified it as a ritual razor (she is married to friend).She may be right, or may be wrong, but in the hand and held as one would to shave, surprisely, it worked.

Sajen's example and the one I had appear to be vitually the same, except for the level of quality. However, we also see a procession of implements which are of similar overall form, but are clearly very different to the examples posted by Sajen and me.

I believe that this example shown in Stone is the most divergent yet.

VANDOO · 6th August 2011, 04:44 AM

NO DOUBT THE FORM CHANGED FROM COUNTRY TO COUNTRY AND THE QUALITY AND DIFFERENT USES VARIED AS WELL. THE LONG CURVED HANDLE AND SHAPE OF BLADE ALOWS FOR USING PLENTY OF PRESSURE AS WELL AS HAVING SMOOTH STABLE CONTROL SO DELICATE WORK CAN BE DONE. I WOULD CERTIANLY CONSIDER SHAVEING ONES SELF OR SOMEONE IMPORTANT A DELICATE OPERATION AS IN THE LATTER YOUR LIFE MIGHT DEPEND ON A GOOD JOB.

I COULD SEE YOUR EXAMPLE ONLY BEING USED PERHAPS TO SHAVE A HEAD OF AN IMPORTANT PERSON AND PERHAPS IN DIFFERENT RITUALS DEFINITELY NOT A COMMON WORK KNIFE. LESS FANCY ONES MAY HAVE BEEN USED AS WORK KNIVES AS WELL AS FOR PERSONEL HYGENE OR IN SPECIAL RITUALS AS WELL.

ALL OF THSE KNIFES REMINDS ME OF THE SMALL SIDE KNIFE (PISAU RAUT) CARRIED IN THE BACK POUCHES OF SOME DAYAK WEAPONS. THESE KNIVES WERE USED TO CARVE WOOD AND WORK FIBER AS WELL AS TO GROOM THE OWNER, SHAVEING TRIMING HAIR OR FINGERNAILS ECT.
SO FAR WE HAVE SIMULAR KNIVES FROM SEVERAL DIFFERENT COUNTRYS THE ONE IN STONES BEING FROM SIAM (THAILAND) IF USED ONLY IN RITUAL IT WOULD NO DOUBT BE USED IN BUDIST CEREMONY. NO DOUBT THERE WOULD BE DIFERENCES IN HINDU , MALAY, INDONESIAN AND OTHER CULTURES
UNFORTUNATELY THE ONLY THING I CAN SAY FOR CERTIAN ABOUT THE FIRST KNIFE IS COOL WELL MADE KNIFE AND PRETTY WOOD.

Tim Simmons · 6th August 2011, 06:55 PM

I can understand Alan's concerns about drift from the example Detlef started the topic with. Perhaps we are not even half way through? In many ways I see the only point of this forum is to drift or remain forever stuck on a straight line. Plenty of time to return to the start after cogitation of all similar forms. This brings to mind a saying equally relevant to arts and crafts that "no man is an island"

This is the example Barry brings to note from "Stone" it is actually quite a bit larger. Have an 8 inch blade and the handle is horn 24 inches long. I would say that was a substantial weapon.

Tim Simmons · 6th August 2011, 07:02 PM

Now talking about the example I post here. The decoration is throwing me. One might liken the decoration to work from Samoa or Tonga? but also look at these artifacts from Roumania. As I stated this just does not look like Asian decoration? To me anyway, however the form seems to comform to an Asian origin.

Indianajones · 6th August 2011, 08:05 PM

Hi, the quite interesting knife Tim has presented us deserves to my (humble) opinion its own thread. Although it looks simple it is I think an ancient knife which has its own 'follow ups' in the rest of Asia, as I do also think it originates from mainland Asia (meaning; Birma, Laos etc).

Besides; the zigzag-decoration is a quite basic one and is used my many cultures all over the world. Actually the way it is done reminded me immediately of the decoration on Fijian clubs, but clearly the knife has nothing to do with Fiji.

The fact it is quite an interesting knife is that -as being a N.-Philippine collector- I really consider this knife to be a possible fore-runner of the N.-Phil. Kalinga axe; see the thread 'origin of the Kalinga axe' .
Although it does not look much like one, it does has many similarities -very basic ones- that are so characteristic of the Kalinga axes; spur at back of the blade (although rolled up), a ferrule, the bulges in the handle, the spur, the copper rings as deco and also the zigzag-deco.

Would like to know Nonoy's oppinion about it.

tom hyle · 7th August 2011, 01:11 PM

[QUOTE=Indianajones]Hi, the quite interesting knife Tim has presented us deserves to my (humble) opinion its own thread. Although it looks simple it is I think an ancient knife which has its own 'follow ups' in the rest of Asia, as I do also think it originates from mainland Asia (meaning; Birma, Laos etc).

Besides; the zigzag-decoration is a quite basic one and is used my many cultures all over the world. Actually the way it is done reminded me immediately of the decoration on Fijian clubs, but clearly the knife has nothing to do with Fiji.

The fact it is quite an interesting knife is that -as being a N.-Philippine collector- I really consider this knife to be a possible fore-runner of the N.-Phil. Kalinga axe; see the thread 'origin of the Kalinga axe' .
Although it does not look much like one, it does has many similarities -very basic ones- that are so characteristic of the Kalinga axes; spur at back of the blade (although rolled up), a ferrule, the bulges in the handle, the spur, the copper rings as deco and also the zigzag-deco.

Would like to know Nonoy's oppinion about it.[/Q

There would seem to be a relation to (other) tanged SE Asian choppers such as the long handled Naga dao as well? Note however that the handle is always curved and that it relates to both dha and European medieval wood carving knives with similar long handles (ie the long handled wood carving knife is not an isolated thing by any means!)
Tim's piece, which still looks African to me, is, at least, not typical, and none of the other ones have projections on their handles.
Interesting point about the spur projecting from the peak of the clip on one or two (depending on Tim's) examples.
The zig zag decoration is usually known in English as "hound's tooth"

6th August 2011, 06:55 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	I can understand Alan's concerns about drift from the example Detlef started the topic with. Perhaps we are not even half way through? In many ways I see the only point of this forum is to drift or remain forever stuck on a straight line. Plenty of time to return to the start after cogitation of all similar forms. This brings to mind a saying equally relevant to arts and crafts that "no man is an island" This is the example Barry brings to note from "Stone" it is actually quite a bit larger. Have an 8 inch blade and the handle is horn 24 inches long. I would say that was a substantial weapon. Attached Images

6th August 2011, 07:02 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Now talking about the example I post here. The decoration is throwing me. One might liken the decoration to work from Samoa or Tonga? but also look at these artifacts from Roumania. As I stated this just does not look like Asian decoration? To me anyway, however the form seems to comform to an Asian origin. Attached Images

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5th August 2011, 11:45 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	RAN ACROSS A EXAMPLE OF THIS FORM WHILE SEARCHING STONES, SEE PAGE 365 PLATE 459. FIG 4, SIAM RATTAN TRIMMING KNIFE 24IN. LONG, BLADE 8.5 IN.

6th August 2011, 03:09 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,005	Barry, thank you for bringing this to our attention, but I feel that we are wandering away from the example that Sajen posted and that began this thread. The one that I had , and have posted a pic of, was most certainly no tool, it was a very high quality, very refined implement, that carried quite a lot of gold. The daughter of an Indian Brahmin identified it as a ritual razor (she is married to friend).She may be right, or may be wrong, but in the hand and held as one would to shave, surprisely, it worked. Sajen's example and the one I had appear to be vitually the same, except for the level of quality. However, we also see a procession of implements which are of similar overall form, but are clearly very different to the examples posted by Sajen and me. I believe that this example shown in Stone is the most divergent yet.

6th August 2011, 04:44 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NO DOUBT THE FORM CHANGED FROM COUNTRY TO COUNTRY AND THE QUALITY AND DIFFERENT USES VARIED AS WELL. THE LONG CURVED HANDLE AND SHAPE OF BLADE ALOWS FOR USING PLENTY OF PRESSURE AS WELL AS HAVING SMOOTH STABLE CONTROL SO DELICATE WORK CAN BE DONE. I WOULD CERTIANLY CONSIDER SHAVEING ONES SELF OR SOMEONE IMPORTANT A DELICATE OPERATION AS IN THE LATTER YOUR LIFE MIGHT DEPEND ON A GOOD JOB. I COULD SEE YOUR EXAMPLE ONLY BEING USED PERHAPS TO SHAVE A HEAD OF AN IMPORTANT PERSON AND PERHAPS IN DIFFERENT RITUALS DEFINITELY NOT A COMMON WORK KNIFE. LESS FANCY ONES MAY HAVE BEEN USED AS WORK KNIVES AS WELL AS FOR PERSONEL HYGENE OR IN SPECIAL RITUALS AS WELL. ALL OF THSE KNIFES REMINDS ME OF THE SMALL SIDE KNIFE (PISAU RAUT) CARRIED IN THE BACK POUCHES OF SOME DAYAK WEAPONS. THESE KNIVES WERE USED TO CARVE WOOD AND WORK FIBER AS WELL AS TO GROOM THE OWNER, SHAVEING TRIMING HAIR OR FINGERNAILS ECT. SO FAR WE HAVE SIMULAR KNIVES FROM SEVERAL DIFFERENT COUNTRYS THE ONE IN STONES BEING FROM SIAM (THAILAND) IF USED ONLY IN RITUAL IT WOULD NO DOUBT BE USED IN BUDIST CEREMONY. NO DOUBT THERE WOULD BE DIFERENCES IN HINDU , MALAY, INDONESIAN AND OTHER CULTURES UNFORTUNATELY THE ONLY THING I CAN SAY FOR CERTIAN ABOUT THE FIRST KNIFE IS COOL WELL MADE KNIFE AND PRETTY WOOD.

6th August 2011, 08:05 PM	#6
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hi, the quite interesting knife Tim has presented us deserves to my (humble) opinion its own thread. Although it looks simple it is I think an ancient knife which has its own 'follow ups' in the rest of Asia, as I do also think it originates from mainland Asia (meaning; Birma, Laos etc). Besides; the zigzag-decoration is a quite basic one and is used my many cultures all over the world. Actually the way it is done reminded me immediately of the decoration on Fijian clubs, but clearly the knife has nothing to do with Fiji. The fact it is quite an interesting knife is that -as being a N.-Philippine collector- I really consider this knife to be a possible fore-runner of the N.-Phil. Kalinga axe; see the thread 'origin of the Kalinga axe' . Although it does not look much like one, it does has many similarities -very basic ones- that are so characteristic of the Kalinga axes; spur at back of the blade (although rolled up), a ferrule, the bulges in the handle, the spur, the copper rings as deco and also the zigzag-deco. Would like to know Nonoy's oppinion about it.

7th August 2011, 01:11 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	[QUOTE=Indianajones]Hi, the quite interesting knife Tim has presented us deserves to my (humble) opinion its own thread. Although it looks simple it is I think an ancient knife which has its own 'follow ups' in the rest of Asia, as I do also think it originates from mainland Asia (meaning; Birma, Laos etc). Besides; the zigzag-decoration is a quite basic one and is used my many cultures all over the world. Actually the way it is done reminded me immediately of the decoration on Fijian clubs, but clearly the knife has nothing to do with Fiji. The fact it is quite an interesting knife is that -as being a N.-Philippine collector- I really consider this knife to be a possible fore-runner of the N.-Phil. Kalinga axe; see the thread 'origin of the Kalinga axe' . Although it does not look much like one, it does has many similarities -very basic ones- that are so characteristic of the Kalinga axes; spur at back of the blade (although rolled up), a ferrule, the bulges in the handle, the spur, the copper rings as deco and also the zigzag-deco. Would like to know Nonoy's oppinion about it.[/Q There would seem to be a relation to (other) tanged SE Asian choppers such as the long handled Naga dao as well? Note however that the handle is always curved and that it relates to both dha and European medieval wood carving knives with similar long handles (ie the long handled wood carving knife is not an isolated thing by any means!) Tim's piece, which still looks African to me, is, at least, not typical, and none of the other ones have projections on their handles. Interesting point about the spur projecting from the peak of the clip on one or two (depending on Tim's) examples. The zig zag decoration is usually known in English as "hound's tooth"