Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords

Matchlock · 30th July 2011, 03:49 PM

Hi Jasper,

Nice item you've acquired there, congratulations!

Actually it was not exactly excavated in my backyard

but some 40 km northwest from where I live. Of course I know that region very well as I used to study and afterwards live in Regensburg for almost 25 years.

It's really well preserved, with no yellowish, aggressive salt points visible on the images.

The combination with the belt hook is highly remarkable too, as well as the fact that the latter is Nuremberg marked, and left of this there seems to be another coat of arms, probably the one of Bavaria.

What I would be interested to learn: could you please give us the overall length, blade length and width of blade at the quillons?
Is this the original bottom mount of the sheath right near the tip of the blade?

Thanks a lot for sharing,
Michael

cornelistromp · 31st July 2011, 07:45 PM

Hi Michael,

well almost your backyard then.

all the parts are found together also the chape.
remarkable because in most images Messer are worn with out any sheath.
also a picture of the belt hook with spring to secure the plate.

The measurements are:
the sword allover: 80,5 cm
the blade length/width: 67,0 cm / 4,2 cm
blade is single edged wit a fuller at both sides.
the crossguard: 22,5 cm
the ring in diameter: 7,0 cm / 4 cm

best,

Matchlock · 1st August 2011, 03:55 PM

Thank you so much again, Jasper!

This one is a really fine and well documented find!

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 1st August 2011, 08:52 PM

Thank you Michael,

Yes, I bought it from a German gentlemen, it is known that Germans are generally somewhat more precise in detail.

BTW did you ever see such a messer for single hand use.
The longer 2 hand Messers are known, but here the grip is a little longer for single hand- or 1 1/2 hand use.
probably this extra length is needed only to counterbalance the light blade enough, i/o a pommel/counterweight.

best,

mrwizard · 2nd August 2011, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

BTW did you ever see such a messer for single hand use.
The longer 2 hand Messers are known, but here the grip is a little longer for single hand- or 1 1/2 hand use.

The Messer "ZEF 4" documented on this site seems to be made
for single hand or 1 1/2 use:
http://www.zornhau.de/dinkelsbuhl-first-steel/#more-92

Single hand figthing styles for the Messer are described in
Lecküchner, H: Kunst des Messerfechtens (CGM 582), 1482
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/...002184/images/

Best Regards,
Thilo

fernando · 2nd August 2011, 12:50 PM

BTW, Michl ... and others

.
Are you aware of this publication?
Nice swords here. All examples with full technical data.
Pity (for me) is written in german

.
... But the illustrations are universal, though

.

.

Matchlock · 2nd August 2011, 05:39 PM

Hi 'Nando,

Of course, the Schneider/Stüber book on edged weapons from the Zurich arsenal has been in my library for some 30 years and has often seen reference.

I'd like to add that the measurements, too, are internationally understood.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 2nd August 2011, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

The Messer "ZEF 4" documented on this site seems to be made
for single hand or 1 1/2 use:
http://www.zornhau.de/dinkelsbuhl-first-steel/#more-92

Single hand figthing styles for the Messer are described in
Lecküchner, H: Kunst des Messerfechtens (CGM 582), 1482
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/...002184/images/

Best Regards,
Thilo

Hi Thilo,

As I am very much aware of the 'source' whereafter that engaged young guy builds his replicas, I have become very reserved ... there are way too many fakes around originating from that very same 'source'.

Best,
Michael

mrwizard · 2nd August 2011, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

As I am very much aware of the 'source' whereafter that engaged young guy builds his replicas, I have become very reserved ... there are way too many fakes around originating from that very same 'source'.

Hi Michael,
Thanks for the remarks about the 'source' of the weapons.
I didn't know (or even suspect) that it was questionable.

Regarding the intentions of the people whose website i linked to:
While i am aware that documenting weapons to build replicas as close to the
original as possible is problematic from a collectors perspective,
i am *very* sure these people won't sell fakes to anyone.

Best Regards,
Thilo

Matchlock · 5th August 2011, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Single hand figthing styles for the Messer are described in
Lecküchner, H: , 1482
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/...002184/images/

Best Regards,
Thilo

Hi Thilo,

Thank you for pointing out this valuable link!

As it is much preferred on our forum to post pictures instead of posting links, I am going to publish a selection of Hans Lehküchner, Kunst des Messerfechtens (CGM 582), 1482.

Please note the birds' head shaped pommels (Vogelkopfknauf) as well as the single edged blades with their tips sharpened on both egdes.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 5th August 2011, 08:25 PM

The rest.

31st July 2011, 07:45 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Michael, well almost your backyard then. all the parts are found together also the chape. remarkable because in most images Messer are worn with out any sheath. also a picture of the belt hook with spring to secure the plate. The measurements are: the sword allover: 80,5 cm the blade length/width: 67,0 cm / 4,2 cm blade is single edged wit a fuller at both sides. the crossguard: 22,5 cm the ring in diameter: 7,0 cm / 4 cm best, Attached Images

2nd August 2011, 12:50 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	BTW, Michl ... and others . Are you aware of this publication? Nice swords here. All examples with full technical data. Pity (for me) is written in german . ... But the illustrations are universal, though . . Attached Images

5th August 2011, 08:25 PM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The rest. Attached Images

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30th July 2011, 03:49 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Jasper, Nice item you've acquired there, congratulations! Actually it was not exactly excavated in my backyard but some 40 km northwest from where I live. Of course I know that region very well as I used to study and afterwards live in Regensburg for almost 25 years. It's really well preserved, with no yellowish, aggressive salt points visible on the images. The combination with the belt hook is highly remarkable too, as well as the fact that the latter is Nuremberg marked, and left of this there seems to be another coat of arms, probably the one of Bavaria. What I would be interested to learn: could you please give us the overall length, blade length and width of blade at the quillons? Is this the original bottom mount of the sheath right near the tip of the blade? Thanks a lot for sharing, Michael

1st August 2011, 03:55 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much again, Jasper! This one is a really fine and well documented find! Best, Michael

1st August 2011, 08:52 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Thank you Michael, Yes, I bought it from a German gentlemen, it is known that Germans are generally somewhat more precise in detail. BTW did you ever see such a messer for single hand use. The longer 2 hand Messers are known, but here the grip is a little longer for single hand- or 1 1/2 hand use. probably this extra length is needed only to counterbalance the light blade enough, i/o a pommel/counterweight. best,

2nd August 2011, 05:39 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, Of course, the Schneider/Stüber book on edged weapons from the Zurich arsenal has been in my library for some 30 years and has often seen reference. I'd like to add that the measurements, too, are internationally understood. Best, Michael