Keris blade

[PenangsangII]

IMHO, Jawa or Lombok or even Bali provenance does not really matter, as I believe though the forging is quite well done, the blade was not made by an Empu or at least a Pandai keris. Look at the tips of the sogokan, and compare that with the blumbangan cleavage near the gandik. If its an empu made, definitely the line of the blumbangan would be nicely touch the tips of the sogokan, and cross the middle of 2nd luk. Any blade made by an empu or pande of any provenance / era would stick to this rule.

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

IMHO, Jawa or Lombok or even Bali provenance does not really matter, as I believe though the forging is quite well done, the blade was not made by an Empu or at least a Pandai keris. Look at the tips of the sogokan, and compare that with the blumbangan cleavage near the gandik. If its an empu made, definitely the line of the blumbangan would be nicely touch the tips of the sogokan, and cross the middle of 2nd luk. Any blade made by an empu or pande of any provenance / era would stick to this rule.

Sorry, but i am confused as to exactly why you believe that the origin of the blade is unimportant in Detlef's decision on how to dress it. Frankly i would image that the large majority of the blades that we show and discuss here are not empu made keris, yet most of them are clearly in a style or form which does still dictate proper cultural dress.

[PenangsangII]

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, but i am confused as to exactly why you believe that the origin of the blade is unimportant in Detlef's decision on how to dress it. Frankly i would image that the large majority of the blades that we show and discuss here are not empu made keris, yet most of them are clearly in a style or form which does still dictate proper cultural dress.

I hope my earlier comment does not confuse anyone. It was meant to stress that anywhere within the Nusantara realm, empus and pandes had to conform with the so called defined SIFIR (measurement) as that of kraton's or istana's guideline. Even within Malay keris culture, the said sifir still hold true - maybe keris diasphora came from Jawanese kraton, thats why no matter how different the dapur looks, the measurement is still the same.

As such, dressing the keris also normally conform to that of the kraton / istana pakem, unless a keris was made by non empu / pande, the dress then is whatever we feel like dressing IMHO.

I am not sure whether everyone can understand what I was trying to say, as my English is not that good. feel free to ask more if clarification is needed.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

IMHO, Jawa or Lombok or even Bali provenance does not really matter, as I believe though the forging is quite well done, the blade was not made by an Empu or at least a Pandai keris. Look at the tips of the sogokan, and compare that with the blumbangan cleavage near the gandik. If its an empu made, definitely the line of the blumbangan would be nicely touch the tips of the sogokan, and cross the middle of 2nd luk. Any blade made by an empu or pande of any provenance / era would stick to this rule.

Hello Penangsang,

agree with you that this isn't a blade which is worked by a high standard. Shall I understand by your words that this blade isn't worth to get a proper dress?

Regards,

Detlef

[PenangsangII]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Penangsang,

agree with you that this isn't a blade which is worked by a high standard. Shall I understand by your words that this blade isn't worth to get a proper dress?

Regards,

Detlef

Hi detlef,

i hope you dont take my earlier comment as an insult. My point was, since the keris was believed to have been made in East Java or Lombok in particular, so dress it in whatever you see fit. But if was most likely made by an empu or even a pande, then the dress has to be more particular.

However, from my own understanding, the keris dress is not necessarily attributed to the place of origin, but rather where the keris was last found (where and who was the last owner). This however only applies to Nusantara area.

Hope this clarifies, but feel free to ask if my words are hard to understand

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Hi detlef,

i hope you dont take my earlier comment as an insult. My point was, since the keris was believed to have been made in East Java or Lombok in particular, so dress it in whatever you see fit. But if was most likely made by an empu or even a pande, then the dress has to be more particular.

However, from my own understanding, the keris dress is not necessarily attributed to the place of origin, but rather where the keris was last found (where and who was the last owner). This however only applies to Nusantara area.

Hope this clarifies, but feel free to ask if my words are hard to understand

I believe i understand where you are coming from Penagsang, but i think i will agree to disagree. Detlef is not a native of the Indonesian Archipelago. If he were then perhaps it would be appropriate to dress this keris to his own particular cultural region. I doubt very much that the provenance exists to determine which of the cultures of the archipelago this keris was last dressed in so i will continue to maintain that the most appropriate dress would be in the style of the place of origin of the blade.

[PenangsangII]

Thks David for your opinion....and to certain extent I agree... but pls take a look at this pic

[A. G. Maisey]

Penangsang, I am having a great deal of difficulty in understanding exactly what you mean when you say:-

"--- the line of the blumbangan would be nicely touch the tips of the sogokan, and cross the middle of 2nd luk---"

I have had not a little instruction in the layout of keris that conform to Surakarta and Mataram tangguh.

My teachers in this have been Empu Suparman Supowijaya and Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, additionally I count amongst my close friends several working pande keris.

I am unable to align anything I have ever heard from any of these people with what I think you might be saying.

I have looked at several keris that are in my care which are attributed to noted makers, such as Empu Jayasukadgo, Empu Kinom, Empu Guling, and I cannot align what I see in these blades with what you have written.

Could I trouble you to clarify exactly what you mean by the statement I have quoted above?

Thank you.

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Thks David for your opinion....and to certain extent I agree... but pls take a look at this pic

Thanks Penangsang. I have taken a good look at the keris you have posted and don't understand how it relates to what i have said. Could you explain?

[PenangsangII]

in reply to post no 29 by Alan.

I just cannot explain it in a good understandable words, but here it goes. If we put a straight ruler from the edge of blumbangan (near the gandik), the straight line will touch nicely the tip/s of the sogokan and crosses the first luk after the wadidang (luk no 2). I have these 2 pictures to describe it, but since I dont have a digital camera right now, I used my cellphone to thake the photographs. I am posting also using my cellphone, so forgive the quality of the pics.[IMG]http://[/IMG]

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Hi detlef,

i hope you dont take my earlier comment as an insult. My point was, since the keris was believed to have been made in East Java or Lombok in particular, so dress it in whatever you see fit. But if was most likely made by an empu or even a pande, then the dress has to be more particular.

However, from my own understanding, the keris dress is not necessarily attributed to the place of origin, but rather where the keris was last found (where and who was the last owner). This however only applies to Nusantara area.

Hope this clarifies, but feel free to ask if my words are hard to understand

Hi Penangsang,

don't worry, I don't feel attacked. But I am with David that I will try to dress the blade in Lombok style.

Regards,

Detlef