A south Indian katar

archer · 5th July 2011, 12:42 AM

Jens, The fish are beautifully carved. The fact their eyes are on the same side of their heads is normal for flat/ bottom fish such as Halibut. Does it have meaning to the Hindu/ Indian cultures? This by far, the best quality chiseling on a katar.

Steve

Battara · 5th July 2011, 04:32 AM

Archer, I know that the fish was one of Vishnu's early incarnations on earth.

Lew · 5th July 2011, 03:20 PM

Jens

Can you please post a pic of the entire piece.

Thanks

Lew

Jim McDougall · 5th July 2011, 03:34 PM

Steve, Jose and Lew, thanks for the additional input guys! Thats what I'm talkin' about

I'd really like to learn more from this emphatically beautiful piece, so I'm really glad it came up again. Good observations on the fish as a motif, and as noted by Jose, one of the incarnations of Vishnu. I think we will find more on this in Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual", so looking forward to what turns up there.
Jens, may we please have an encore on more detail on this beauty!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 5th July 2011, 03:59 PM

All right, here is the whole katar.
You should be aware of, that one fish can have one or more meanings, two fishes can have another meaning and a hole lot of fishes can have yet another meaning. Jim once told me the the Maharaja of Oudh had a fish as his royal symbol, but you also see a fish of the top of a standard, or on the standard itself.
Archer - I understand what you are saying, but these fishes are at the outside of the side guards seen from the upside, and on the inside seen from the bottom - that is what makes me wonder. But maybe I am wrong.

Lew · 5th July 2011, 06:22 PM

Jens

That's just a lovely piece the blade reminds me of the ones you often see on those hooded style katars.

Congrats

Rick · 5th July 2011, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Steve, Jose and Lew, thanks for the additional input guys! Thats what I'm talkin' about

I'd really like to learn more from this emphatically beautiful piece, so I'm really glad it came up again. Good observations on the fish as a motif, and as noted by Jose, one of the incarnations of Vishnu. I think we will find more on this in Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual", so looking forward to what turns up there.
Jens, may we please have an encore on more detail on this beauty!!!

All the best,
Jim

About those fish; I don't believe they are members of the flatfish group ; the gills are wrongly depicted as are the eyes . I believe it is an overhead view that is depicted .
I wish I could add more to the discussion .

This katar is wonderous Jens .

Gavin Nugent · 5th July 2011, 10:00 PM

Jens,

The hooded Katar you present, it seems to show the blade and decoration at the hilt junction as integral where many are hooded examples are blades sandwiched between decorative panels and riveted like the Katar you have shown at the start of the thread. Do you have the hooded piece in hand to offer any insight as to the securing of the blade to the hilt? I think Elgood only offered one of this type where the rest were riveted types as are my two.

With regards to the fish, I think they are entirely stylistic representations only, despite the 'gill arrangement only' being like the flathead. There is likely reference or suggestions within publications of early Indian art about the forms of these fish or Vishnu now sitting somewhere in the annals of time....
It is interesting to see the fish symbol grow each step of the way through the taper of the side bar and the presence of the beading throughout shows fantastic quality of workmanship.

With regards to the Katar initially posted, would you be kind enough to share an image or two of the designs on the inside of the hilt where the blade joins. The mound appears to have some wonderful iconography.

Gav

archer · 6th July 2011, 03:34 AM

I hate to swim against the current, but, flatfish start out as normal vertically swimming fish. As they mature and evolve one eye migrates around their heads
until they are both on the same side. Their colors evolve also much like military planes darker on top lighter on the bottom. To me, I see the smaller fish
as vertical. If the fish represent Vishnu perhaps these help to show his evolution. Steve

5th July 2011, 12:42 AM	#1
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Fish Jens, The fish are beautifully carved. The fact their eyes are on the same side of their heads is normal for flat/ bottom fish such as Halibut. Does it have meaning to the Hindu/ Indian cultures? This by far, the best quality chiseling on a katar. Steve

5th July 2011, 03:59 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	All right, here is the whole katar. You should be aware of, that one fish can have one or more meanings, two fishes can have another meaning and a hole lot of fishes can have yet another meaning. Jim once told me the the Maharaja of Oudh had a fish as his royal symbol, but you also see a fish of the top of a standard, or on the standard itself. Archer - I understand what you are saying, but these fishes are at the outside of the side guards seen from the upside, and on the inside seen from the bottom - that is what makes me wonder. But maybe I am wrong. Attached Images

5th July 2011, 10:00 PM	#8
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Sandwiched Jens, The hooded Katar you present, it seems to show the blade and decoration at the hilt junction as integral where many are hooded examples are blades sandwiched between decorative panels and riveted like the Katar you have shown at the start of the thread. Do you have the hooded piece in hand to offer any insight as to the securing of the blade to the hilt? I think Elgood only offered one of this type where the rest were riveted types as are my two. With regards to the fish, I think they are entirely stylistic representations only, despite the 'gill arrangement only' being like the flathead. There is likely reference or suggestions within publications of early Indian art about the forms of these fish or Vishnu now sitting somewhere in the annals of time.... It is interesting to see the fish symbol grow each step of the way through the taper of the side bar and the presence of the beading throughout shows fantastic quality of workmanship. With regards to the Katar initially posted, would you be kind enough to share an image or two of the designs on the inside of the hilt where the blade joins. The mound appears to have some wonderful iconography. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 5th July 2011 at 10:20 PM. Reason: a few extra words

6th July 2011, 03:34 AM	#9
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Fish I hate to swim against the current, but, flatfish start out as normal vertically swimming fish. As they mature and evolve one eye migrates around their heads until they are both on the same side. Their colors evolve also much like military planes darker on top lighter on the bottom. To me, I see the smaller fish as vertical. If the fish represent Vishnu perhaps these help to show his evolution. Steve Attached Images

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5th July 2011, 04:32 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Archer, I know that the fish was one of Vishnu's early incarnations on earth.

5th July 2011, 03:20 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jens Can you please post a pic of the entire piece. Thanks Lew

5th July 2011, 03:34 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Steve, Jose and Lew, thanks for the additional input guys! Thats what I'm talkin' about I'd really like to learn more from this emphatically beautiful piece, so I'm really glad it came up again. Good observations on the fish as a motif, and as noted by Jose, one of the incarnations of Vishnu. I think we will find more on this in Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual", so looking forward to what turns up there. Jens, may we please have an encore on more detail on this beauty!!! All the best, Jim

5th July 2011, 06:22 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jens That's just a lovely piece the blade reminds me of the ones you often see on those hooded style katars. Congrats