Sea cow used for Iban hilts

[fearn]

Vandoo,

I don't blame anyone for making a hilt out of a bit of bone, either, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was made before dugongs were listed as endangered species (in 2000, AFAIK).

The issue here is that, depending on the customs agents of a particular country and the amount of documentation VVV has, if this langgai tinggang crosses a border, it might get confiscated. That's the reality of living in a world where many really cool species are endangered.

The reason I mention this is that I know people in England who would love this puzzle. I'd hate to tell VVV to take this blade to them, only to have it confiscated in transit. That benefits no one, not even the remaining live dugongs.

My 0.0002 cents,

F

[TimW]

Interesting info. I work a lot with natural materials (antler / bone). There are numerous difefrences among species. If you look at the range of antlers: they vary from very porous (european deer) to completely dense (elk / axis / reindeer / ...). Regarding the sea cow: I have a big chunk at home / will take some pictures. Stellar sea cow is allready extincted / lots of their bones are found in norhern regions and can be used without problem.

.

[VVV]

Obviously this thread caught some interest so I will contact him on Sunday and ask him to join this discussion so you get his arguments directly from him.

I don't know any marin biologist myself but if there is one on the list, or a member knows one good enough, maybe you can ask him for a comment too?

Unfortunately it isn't that easy to walk around with a large head hunter sword in central Stockholm and draw the blade among 100's of people inside the natural history museum during the tourist season without getting trouble with the police.

On the use of human bones I have never seen or heard about it being used for mandau hilts, unlike skulls placed under the main pillars of the long houses. Probably because of that it doesn't match the Dayak belief system.

On transit hassles fortunately there are no customs between EU-countries (Sweden - UK). Otherwise it might be a problem even if I have never experienced it myself as I only buy blades from before the ban.

Michael

[Gustav]

Regarding the use of human bone for a mandau handle:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=mandau

[VVV]

Yes, I remember that old thread and I have handled the mandau IRL.
But as far as I remember later on it was discovered that it wasn't human bone ...

Michael

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by VVV

Yes, I remember that old thread and I have handled the mandau IRL.
But as far as I remember later on it was discovered that it wasn't human bone ...

Michael

Michael,

What was it discovered to be? I ask as many of your hilts show a patina found on very old and well handled human bones but then the practice of head hunting was pretty quick and I am sure they didn't hang around to take other limbs...of maybe they did now and then?

Gav

[Tim Simmons]

Bone density might be the answer here. Dugong are not deep diving sea mammals so thier bones are more dense than whales. As they live in water they have less dense bones for buoyancy. Land mammals have heavier dense bones certainly bones big enough for sword handles will be hard and dense. So if the bone is light and spongiform it may well be Dugong. Some interesting stuff on bone to follow when an item finishes on ebay.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Michael,

What was it discovered to be? I ask as many of your hilts show a patina found on very old and well handled human bones but then the practice of head hunting was pretty quick and I am sure they didn't hang around to take other limbs...of maybe they did now and then?

Gav

Gav, it was over 6 years ago I was offered it (May 2005 according to my files). Probably I wanted to have proof that it was human bone and didn't get it?
I just remember that we agreed on that it wasn't human bone for sure after all and I bought some other mandaus instead.

Michael

[fearn]

Originally Posted by VVV

I don't know any marin biologist myself but if there is one on the list, or a member knows one good enough, maybe you can ask him for a comment too?

Unfortunately it isn't that easy to walk around with a large head hunter sword in central Stockholm and draw the blade among 100's of people inside the natural history museum during the tourist season without getting trouble with the police.

Hi Michael,

A couple of points.

One is that you neither need nor want a marine biologist, since they typically work with fish (or worms, or whatever). You want an vertebrate anatomist or a paleontologist--a bone dude (or dudette). They typically work at museums, veterinary schools, and universities. Look for places with lots of nicely mounted skeletons.

With regards to carrying a blade around, I've used poster tubes to carry swords (jian), but all you need is a bag that disguises the sword's shape and makes you look harmless. Perhaps a guitar case?

Cheers,

F

[David]

Originally Posted by fearn

A couple of points.

One is that you neither need nor want a marine biologist, since they typically work with fish (or worms, or whatever). You want an vertebrate anatomist or a paleontologist--a bone dude (or dudette). They typically work at museums, veterinary schools, and universities. Look for places with lots of nicely mounted skeletons.

Since you found the need to comment on my suggestion i must point out that a paleontologist is in no way a "bone dude", but one who studies paleontology, the study of all prehistoric life forms, both plant and animal and their fossilized remains.
A marine biologist is involved in the study of the origins, behavior, diseases, genetics, and life processes of animals and wildlife of the marine environment. It's a big ocean and i am sure that marine biologists specialize in certain sub-categories of their field, one of which would certainly include the study of marine mammals, Sea Cow included.
A vertebrate anatomist might be helpful, but frankly i am having a hard time finding any specific information on exactly what they do...

[A. G. Maisey]

My sister-in-law is a prof emeritus in vertebrate anatomy, but she reckons she has very little knowledge of anything at all to do with marine mammals. Suggests that it could be a special field --- whatever that might mean.

[fearn]

Well, I can call someone a paleozoologist, but the way it tends to work, if you're a paleontologist, you typically study vertebrates. Otherwise, you're a paleobotanist, an invertebrate paleontologist, a paleoecologist, a paleoclimatologist, or whatever.

Go read the tetrapod zoology blog if you want to get an idea of what they do and what they're interested in.

That said the question is, is the bone from a dugong. There are a couple of ways to figure that out:
--destructively, with DNA sampling (bore into the bone, away from the surface treatment)
--non-destructively, by figuring out what bone it is (most likely rib or large vertebra) and matching it to the corresponding piece of a skeleton.

That's why you want a comparative anatomist. Paleontologists use this skill all the time, because typically, they get bits of bones from unknown organisms, and have to figure out not only what bone they have, but what the organism was and what it looked like. That's effectively the puzzle you have here.

So yes, you want a bone dude(or dudette). Preferably, you want an institution that has a dugong skeleton to hand, so you can figure out which bone it was by lining it up against the unaltered version. If it's not a dugong, the choices get interesting. Whale? Dolphin? Rhinoceros? Horse? Bovine? Human? There aren't a huge number of large-boned animals in that part of the world, so you should be able to work it out.

F