Has anyone seen anything similar to this sword?

Dmitry · 22nd June 2011, 03:35 PM

Here's another photo of the front of the blade. Note the crown underneath the umbrella. I am really angry with myself for not taking a better photo of the figure on the other side of the blade.
The sword belongs to the Higgins Armory Museum, and I'm trying to help the curator properly ID it for the exhibition they'll be opening up soon.

RSWORD · 22nd June 2011, 05:16 PM

The blade looks Indian to my eyes and do I see an Indian parasol mark?

fernando · 22nd June 2011, 05:41 PM

Weird !
The hand of Fatima would have to be the right one; they (Muslims) wouldn't turn it

.
The crown ... do they have this type of crowns in India ? it looks Western

Thr script ... not Hindi, not Arabic

Tim Simmons · 22nd June 2011, 06:38 PM

The grapes on the hilt do not suggest India or the east to me, nor does the lettering. I Would suspect some sort of central European parade sword. Could easily be civil society rather than military. The hand is also European think of the red hand of Ulster and the notorious Black Hand which lead to a few years of trouble.

A.alnakkas · 22nd June 2011, 06:40 PM

Not Islamic at all. I'd suggest its east european.

Dmitry · 22nd June 2011, 06:49 PM

I've perused my books on the Indian arms and did not see anything even remotely similar to the hilt and/or the decorations on the blade.
To toss another hand in the mix - the open hand mark was also used by the Swiss on the blades of the arsenal-kept swords.

RSWORD · 22nd June 2011, 07:41 PM

I'm not saying the entire piece is Indian, just the blade. The lettering could be a post-manufacture add-on but the profile of the blade, the fullering and the umbrella/parasol mark are quite Indian. The crown is unusual with the parasol mark. We have to remember that blades from India can be found in East European and Western mounts. Look at the spine of this blade. This form of blade from India often, not always, will have a recessed or fullered spine and this feature is not common in blades from other parts of the world. I doubt the blade is in good enough polish to see if it is watered or not and being from India it could be anything but take it into good sunlight and see if you can notice any pattern welding or other watering. Also, it appears there is the slightest hint of a "ricasso" at the cutting edge of the blade near the hilt which is quite reminescent of some Indian blades which are sharpened a few inches down from the hilt and over long periods of time can be "indented" quite a bit.

In thinking about the script, there are a number of Indian blades that have European style lettering that is basically non-descript, done in imitation of European markings. This script reminds me of some of those examples.

22nd June 2011, 03:35 PM	#1
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Here's another photo of the front of the blade. Note the crown underneath the umbrella. I am really angry with myself for not taking a better photo of the figure on the other side of the blade. The sword belongs to the Higgins Armory Museum, and I'm trying to help the curator properly ID it for the exhibition they'll be opening up soon. Attached Images Last edited by Dmitry; 22nd June 2011 at 03:46 PM.

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22nd June 2011, 05:16 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	The blade looks Indian to my eyes and do I see an Indian parasol mark?

22nd June 2011, 05:41 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Weird ! The hand of Fatima would have to be the right one; they (Muslims) wouldn't turn it . The crown ... do they have this type of crowns in India ? it looks Western Thr script ... not Hindi, not Arabic

22nd June 2011, 06:38 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,856	The grapes on the hilt do not suggest India or the east to me, nor does the lettering. I Would suspect some sort of central European parade sword. Could easily be civil society rather than military. The hand is also European think of the red hand of Ulster and the notorious Black Hand which lead to a few years of trouble.

22nd June 2011, 06:40 PM	#5
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Not Islamic at all. I'd suggest its east european.

22nd June 2011, 06:49 PM	#6
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I've perused my books on the Indian arms and did not see anything even remotely similar to the hilt and/or the decorations on the blade. To toss another hand in the mix - the open hand mark was also used by the Swiss on the blades of the arsenal-kept swords.

22nd June 2011, 07:41 PM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	I'm not saying the entire piece is Indian, just the blade. The lettering could be a post-manufacture add-on but the profile of the blade, the fullering and the umbrella/parasol mark are quite Indian. The crown is unusual with the parasol mark. We have to remember that blades from India can be found in East European and Western mounts. Look at the spine of this blade. This form of blade from India often, not always, will have a recessed or fullered spine and this feature is not common in blades from other parts of the world. I doubt the blade is in good enough polish to see if it is watered or not and being from India it could be anything but take it into good sunlight and see if you can notice any pattern welding or other watering. Also, it appears there is the slightest hint of a "ricasso" at the cutting edge of the blade near the hilt which is quite reminescent of some Indian blades which are sharpened a few inches down from the hilt and over long periods of time can be "indented" quite a bit. In thinking about the script, there are a number of Indian blades that have European style lettering that is basically non-descript, done in imitation of European markings. This script reminds me of some of those examples.