Help please. Japanese Gunto (Genuine ? ) with battlefield scabbard.

laEspadaAncha · 17th June 2011, 06:59 PM

Hi David,

An interesting read may be found here, in which the author (Kevin Jones) discusses at some length the different aspects of variability in the process of manufacturing. Notice that eight of the nine variants possess at least a yakiba if not a hamon (I would classify your example as the former). You might even consider reaching out to him directly.

An interesting note: according the article, after 1933 any non-traditional sword was to have been stamped on the nakago to indicate it were not gendaito. While there are plenty of indicators in your example that point towards a late-war production, the presence of a tang stamp does not appear to be one of them.

Hopefully Rich can shed some light as to whether this practice or standard had been eschewed by the time the late-war ersatz examples were produced?

Anyway, here are the nine variants as listed in the article:

***

1. Tamahagane gendaito. Fully hand forged and differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada.

2. Mill-steel gendaito. Fully hand forged from mill steel or (more often) 19th century railway tracks made from Swedish steel. Differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada.

3. Koa-isshin Mantetsu-to. Made from Manchurian steel by a special process. Partly forged, partly engineered, and differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada.

4. Han-tanren abura yaki-ire-to. Partially forged from mill stock, some folding, differentially hardened using oil. Does have a hamon although it is nowhere near as active as a water-quenched sword, but lacks hada.

5. Sunobe abura yaki-ire-to. Drawn down, forged to shape, not folded. Differential hardened using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada.

6. Mantetsu-to. Rolled from Manchurian railway tracks. Differential hardening using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada.

7. Murata-to. Rolled or drawn, oil hardened but not differentially hardened. Yakiba but no visible hamon and no hada.

8. Tai-sabi-ko. Stainless steel, oil-hardened, no grain, no hamon, possible yakiba. Made for the Imperial Japanese Navy to resist salt corrosion.

9. Machine made. Serial number in the blade. No forging; stamped out and quenched in oil without differential hardening, assuming that they are hardened at all. No hada and no hamon. Some may in fact be plated, and in the worst cases the hamon may be acid etched onto the steel. The classic example is the NCO swords. On a par with Chinese fakes, and the most commonly faked sword.

***

Lastly, I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but the gunto koshirae are a poor fit to the blade. I have a hard time imagining a habaki - even with a theoretical missing tsuba - would or could cover that much real estate...

In the end, more conflicting data, though my "gut" still leans towards a late-war production... I still think you will receive a more definitive answer over at the NMB. IMHO I would post it in the gunto forum and see what the members can tell you (this sets the bar at a level to either meet or exceed expectations).

Regards,

Chris

katana · 17th June 2011, 07:54 PM

Chris, great stuff

There isn't much on 19thC - WW2 katana's .....but this reference certainly expands the possibillities. As a weapon, I think the blade is good quality ....but as art

Thanks
David

.

Rich · 18th June 2011, 12:21 AM

Tang stamped blades EXCEPT star stamps are considered non-traditionally made. You can't even get them into Japan to be polished as they are considered by Japanese customs to be illegal weapons. However, the absence of a tang stamp does not mean it is a gendaito as stamps weren't started until sometime in the 40's (sorry, don't recall exact date) and many WW II swords were made before that. Many end of the war swords weren't made in Japan, but rather in Japanese occupied locations like the Phillipines, etc. so they wouldn't have stamps either.

Rich S

Battara · 18th June 2011, 12:41 AM

I wonder if since the holes are perfect and perhaps machined, then they were made to make the piece look like an older piece. Just a wondering......

katana · 18th June 2011, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I wonder if since the holes are perfect and perhaps machined, then they were made to make the piece look like an older piece. Just a wondering......

Hi Battara.
The holes are not perfect ...so do not appear to be drilled or reamed ...2 have rust/patination ...the other less so. Will try later and use magnified photos to show.

Thank you Rich for adding to the thread.

Regards David

katana · 19th July 2011, 03:38 PM

Sorry for the long delay, but here are magnified pictures of the ana. The holes have good paternation and do not appear to be machined...

Regards David

katana · 20th July 2011, 12:12 PM

I've been 'brain storming'

this blade and may have a solution to the questions that this sword isn't 'quite right' . During Japanese occupation swords were produced using local smiths....perhaps this is one.

I am thinking that a smith with the skill of producing Dha could have made katana's for the army using local techniques. I'm not certain but, the blade could have an inserted edge....the 'peaked' spine is not unusual to Dha and the thinner blade 3mm+ is also well known. As I said before the blade is faily good quality and appears to have a few cold shuts and therefore forged.

Any thoughts

Kind Regards David

19th July 2011, 03:38 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Sorry for the long delay, but here are magnified pictures of the ana. The holes have good paternation and do not appear to be machined... Regards David Attached Images

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17th June 2011, 06:59 PM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi David, An interesting read may be found here, in which the author (Kevin Jones) discusses at some length the different aspects of variability in the process of manufacturing. Notice that eight of the nine variants possess at least a yakiba if not a hamon (I would classify your example as the former). You might even consider reaching out to him directly. An interesting note: according the article, after 1933 any non-traditional sword was to have been stamped on the nakago to indicate it were not gendaito. While there are plenty of indicators in your example that point towards a late-war production, the presence of a tang stamp does not appear to be one of them. Hopefully Rich can shed some light as to whether this practice or standard had been eschewed by the time the late-war ersatz examples were produced? Anyway, here are the nine variants as listed in the article: ***** 1. Tamahagane gendaito. Fully hand forged and differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada. 2. Mill-steel gendaito. Fully hand forged from mill steel or (more often) 19th century railway tracks made from Swedish steel. Differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada. 3. Koa-isshin Mantetsu-to. Made from Manchurian steel by a special process. Partly forged, partly engineered, and differentially hardened in the traditional manner using water as a quenching agent. Possesses an active hamon and hada. 4. Han-tanren abura yaki-ire-to. Partially forged from mill stock, some folding, differentially hardened using oil. Does have a hamon although it is nowhere near as active as a water-quenched sword, but lacks hada. 5. Sunobe abura yaki-ire-to. Drawn down, forged to shape, not folded. Differential hardened using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada. 6. Mantetsu-to. Rolled from Manchurian railway tracks. Differential hardening using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada. 7. Murata-to. Rolled or drawn, oil hardened but not differentially hardened. Yakiba but no visible hamon and no hada. 8. Tai-sabi-ko. Stainless steel, oil-hardened, no grain, no hamon, possible yakiba. Made for the Imperial Japanese Navy to resist salt corrosion. 9. Machine made. Serial number in the blade. No forging; stamped out and quenched in oil without differential hardening, assuming that they are hardened at all. No hada and no hamon. Some may in fact be plated, and in the worst cases the hamon may be acid etched onto the steel. The classic example is the NCO swords. On a par with Chinese fakes, and the most commonly faked sword. ***** Lastly, I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but the gunto koshirae are a poor fit to the blade. I have a hard time imagining a habaki - even with a theoretical missing tsuba - would or could cover that much real estate... In the end, more conflicting data, though my "gut" still leans towards a late-war production... I still think you will receive a more definitive answer over at the NMB. IMHO I would post it in the gunto forum and see what the members can tell you (this sets the bar at a level to either meet or exceed expectations). Regards, Chris

17th June 2011, 07:54 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Chris, great stuff There isn't much on 19thC - WW2 katana's .....but this reference certainly expands the possibillities. As a weapon, I think the blade is good quality ....but as art Thanks David .

18th June 2011, 12:21 AM	#3
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Tang stamped blades EXCEPT star stamps are considered non-traditionally made. You can't even get them into Japan to be polished as they are considered by Japanese customs to be illegal weapons. However, the absence of a tang stamp does not mean it is a gendaito as stamps weren't started until sometime in the 40's (sorry, don't recall exact date) and many WW II swords were made before that. Many end of the war swords weren't made in Japan, but rather in Japanese occupied locations like the Phillipines, etc. so they wouldn't have stamps either. Rich S

18th June 2011, 12:41 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I wonder if since the holes are perfect and perhaps machined, then they were made to make the piece look like an older piece. Just a wondering......

20th July 2011, 12:12 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I've been 'brain storming' this blade and may have a solution to the questions that this sword isn't 'quite right' . During Japanese occupation swords were produced using local smiths....perhaps this is one. I am thinking that a smith with the skill of producing Dha could have made katana's for the army using local techniques. I'm not certain but, the blade could have an inserted edge....the 'peaked' spine is not unusual to Dha and the thinner blade 3mm+ is also well known. As I said before the blade is faily good quality and appears to have a few cold shuts and therefore forged. Any thoughts Kind Regards David