Help please. Japanese Gunto (Genuine ? ) with battlefield scabbard.

laEspadaAncha · 25th May 2011, 06:10 PM

Hi David,

Fuller & Gregory cover this variant of late-war production, leather-covered shin-gunto, which according to them, "may be encountered without tsuba or kabuto-gane." These late-war variants were invariably of poor construction. The shrunken leather scabbard cover looks right for the age & pattern. I do find the three mekugi ana to be a little odd and "out of scope" IMO.

Regards,

Chris

Battara · 25th May 2011, 06:13 PM

Usually though the ersatz late Japanese pieces do not have 3 fit tang holes.

Also many nihonto blades are not signed, having nothing to do with forging flaws.

laEspadaAncha · 25th May 2011, 06:46 PM

Something else that caught my attention - the bent kissaki and ha (edge)... Normally, these will chip due to the hardness of the tempered edge (including the boshi). While my exposure is admittedly limited, I can't recall seeing a bent kissaki or edge, though I have seen more than a few edge nicks and chips.

katana · 25th May 2011, 07:52 PM

Hi Chris

,
I totally agree that the scabbard and fitting are low quality and typical of those late in WW2.
However, the blade is much better quality and seems a total mismatch...whether it is due to necessity during the war or later ...

The very tip of the kissaki is slightly bent (the picture makes it look larger) but is still extremely sharp and well defined..... and do not want to try to straighten it as I am certain it would snap. The tip is also very thin where it mets the spine due to the contination of the Ihori (inverted v profiled spine)The edge section you mentioned is also quite small. I am not saying this blade is Nihonto but does seem better than some other gunto I have seen.
The late war blades were often made from sub-standard steel and produced rapidly, so manufacturing standards dropped...it was a time of desperation, so do not believe that this blade is one of those.

I have only seen a few gunto but do not recall any of them having the Ihori type spine....just a standard flat one.

Thank you Battara for your continual input

, I too think that the 3 ana points to a 'previous' life. I had thought that all nihonto were signed ...sounds alittle more promising

Kind Regards David

laEspadaAncha · 25th May 2011, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I have only seen a few gunto but do not recall any of them having the Ihori type spine...

Hi David,

FWIW, all three kai gunto I have owned (only one of which is still in my collection) had ihori mune.

Of these, two were of pre-war production and the other had a mei and nengo dating it to 1943.

Regards,

Chris

laEspadaAncha · 25th May 2011, 08:17 PM

Re: the presence of mei / signatures, of my two nihonto, only one is signed. The other, a beautiful Koto Bizen Wakizashi, is mumei. FWIW, this latter example has gunto koshirae.

However, I've not encountered an heirloom blade in the late-war leather-covered mounting before.

katana · 26th May 2011, 10:14 PM

Hi Chris,
I have drawn around the blade (onto paper) and following how to measure the blade here...
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/measure.htm

Have come to discover some interesting facts

The blade thickness (Kasane) is approx just a tiny bit more than 3mm (3.03mm = 1 bu)

The blade width (mihaba) is approx, but not less than 30mm (30.3 mm = 1 sun )

The kissaki to yokote is also approx 30mm (1 sun)
The Nagasa is 645mm ...so greater than 2 Shaku , therefore a Katana. I think I'm right in saying the length is 2 shaku 1 sun 3 bu ?
The tang (Nakago) is 23cms

The Sor (curvature) is Torrii Sori (curvature at centre)
It seems that many of the dimensions follow the 'old' measurements.

I have also, I believe, found what the Hada (if indeed it is hada) is...it looks to be similar to Konuka
http://www.ncjsc.org/gloss_hada-1.html

Interestingly, it is mentioned that Hizen blades are known for this hada. When searching info on Hizen, it is stated that many have 'straight' hamon ...which mine appears to have. Several of the Hizen katana blades do look very similar (can't post as they are for sale)

Also Gunto blades were apparently 6mm or more (blade thickness) and 'clumsy'. This blade does not match that description.

Kind Regards David

Battara · 27th May 2011, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Re: the presence of mei / signatures, of my two nihonto, only one is signed. The other, a beautiful Koto Bizen Wakizashi, is mumei. FWIW, this latter example has gunto koshirae.

However, I've not encountered an heirloom blade in the late-war leather-covered mounting before.

Actually I have, and even some in gunto or kai-gunto mounts.

Also, ask Rich S - he would be the best source on these pieces.

26th May 2011, 10:14 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Chris, I have drawn around the blade (onto paper) and following how to measure the blade here... http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/measure.htm Have come to discover some interesting facts The blade thickness (Kasane) is approx just a tiny bit more than 3mm (3.03mm = 1 bu) The blade width (mihaba) is approx, but not less than 30mm (30.3 mm = 1 sun ) The kissaki to yokote is also approx 30mm (1 sun) The Nagasa is 645mm ...so greater than 2 Shaku , therefore a Katana. I think I'm right in saying the length is 2 shaku 1 sun 3 bu ? The tang (Nakago) is 23cms The Sor (curvature) is Torrii Sori (curvature at centre) It seems that many of the dimensions follow the 'old' measurements. I have also, I believe, found what the Hada (if indeed it is hada) is...it looks to be similar to Konuka http://www.ncjsc.org/gloss_hada-1.html Interestingly, it is mentioned that Hizen blades are known for this hada. When searching info on Hizen, it is stated that many have 'straight' hamon ...which mine appears to have. Several of the Hizen katana blades do look very similar (can't post as they are for sale) Also Gunto blades were apparently 6mm or more (blade thickness) and 'clumsy'. This blade does not match that description. Kind Regards David Last edited by katana; 26th May 2011 at 10:37 PM.

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25th May 2011, 06:10 PM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi David, Fuller & Gregory cover this variant of late-war production, leather-covered shin-gunto, which according to them, "may be encountered without tsuba or kabuto-gane." These late-war variants were invariably of poor construction. The shrunken leather scabbard cover looks right for the age & pattern. I do find the three mekugi ana to be a little odd and "out of scope" IMO. Regards, Chris

25th May 2011, 06:13 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,368	Usually though the ersatz late Japanese pieces do not have 3 fit tang holes. Also many nihonto blades are not signed, having nothing to do with forging flaws.

25th May 2011, 06:46 PM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Something else that caught my attention - the bent kissaki and ha (edge)... Normally, these will chip due to the hardness of the tempered edge (including the boshi). While my exposure is admittedly limited, I can't recall seeing a bent kissaki or edge, though I have seen more than a few edge nicks and chips.

25th May 2011, 07:52 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Chris , I totally agree that the scabbard and fitting are low quality and typical of those late in WW2. However, the blade is much better quality and seems a total mismatch...whether it is due to necessity during the war or later ... The very tip of the kissaki is slightly bent (the picture makes it look larger) but is still extremely sharp and well defined..... and do not want to try to straighten it as I am certain it would snap. The tip is also very thin where it mets the spine due to the contination of the Ihori (inverted v profiled spine)The edge section you mentioned is also quite small. I am not saying this blade is Nihonto but does seem better than some other gunto I have seen. The late war blades were often made from sub-standard steel and produced rapidly, so manufacturing standards dropped...it was a time of desperation, so do not believe that this blade is one of those. I have only seen a few gunto but do not recall any of them having the Ihori type spine....just a standard flat one. Thank you Battara for your continual input , I too think that the 3 ana points to a 'previous' life. I had thought that all nihonto were signed ...sounds alittle more promising Kind Regards David

25th May 2011, 08:17 PM	#6
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Re: the presence of mei / signatures, of my two nihonto, only one is signed. The other, a beautiful Koto Bizen Wakizashi, is mumei. FWIW, this latter example has gunto koshirae. However, I've not encountered an heirloom blade in the late-war leather-covered mounting before.