Jambiya, Amber hilt, Before & After a Little Restoration

derek · 14th July 2005, 08:45 PM

Ian,

I decided to drop those shards into salty water as described in the amber test page. One is about 1/2 inch by 1/4 inch. Big enough to sink. The other is slightly smaller. I even pushed them to the bottom of the cup. They sat there - until the salt dissolved completely. Then they both popped back to the top! So now I really don't know.

Jens Nordlunde · 14th July 2005, 09:45 PM

Hi Derek,

My knowledge about amber it very little, although amber in this sizes like these is rare, and my knowledge about fake amber is even smaller, so I can’t help you out here, but to me the thing as a whole looks Indian. Although I must also say that it could be Arabian. Interesting knife.

Rick · 14th July 2005, 10:41 PM

I'm having a hard time believing that this hilt material is amber in any form . I think we have all seen numerous examples of this type of hilt and from what I read from the links provided it just doesn't make sense that weapons hilted from this material (if amber) can sell for such a low price on the open market .
If this stuff really is amber (even reconstituted) I would expect to see color variations but all I have seen is the same general color and opaqueness in every example . Large chunk amber is quite expensive and molding bits and pieces seems to be a fairly complicated process which would IMO require a much higher price as a material .

Amber chunks :
http://www.ambericawest.com/chunks.html

Maybe it is this stuff which could be manufactured at a fairly simple level of technology :
http://www.ambericawest.com/make_amber.html

Andrew · 15th July 2005, 12:48 AM

Could this be bakelite?

http://www.deco-echoes.com/bakelite.html

derek · 15th July 2005, 12:52 AM

Hi Rick,

I'm doubting it too, but if the example Artzi lists is in fact amber - I note the term amber like is very deliberately used - then this looks identical. I totally defer to others on this and I suspect you are right. Could be the floating piece is a fluke due to the small size of the sample.

Is the amber in the links you included the "only kind" of amber? This stuff certainly looks nothing like it.

BTW, I didn't mention what I paid but it was in fact pretty cheap! Having said, I just got a PAIR of ivory handled kukris for $80! It can happen...

Rick · 15th July 2005, 03:46 AM

Nice score Derek !
Too damn nice , grrrrrrrr grumble .

There is yet another 'amber' hilted jambiya just like yours and Artzi's currently being offered . Doesn't Aurangzeb have one of these too ?

The one thing these hilts have in common is a consistancy of color and for a natural material like amber this strikes me as very un-natural .
Maybe these hilts are being referred to as amber for their color and for lack of knowledge of what they really are made from .
This is probably a silly question but have you tapped the hilt against your teeth ? Could it possibly be some kind of stone ?

derek · 15th July 2005, 06:10 AM

Thanks, Rick. I couldn't believe it, actually. I assumed they would be bone. I'm just trying to get lucky more than I get burned

I'm pretty convinced its celluloid, but I wouldn't rule out anything, including bakelite.

RobT · 16th July 2005, 04:32 AM

If I'm not mistaken celluloid is made up of layers of celluloid impregnated substrate. If that is correct, it would be unlikely to fracture as cleanly as your dagger hilt did. Bakelite however is a sort of proto plastic and fractures much the same as plastic. I would bet your hilt, if not a natural material, is bakelite. A cane collector (or better yet, a bakelite jewelry dealer) may be able to itentify the hilt material. There are usually many bakelite jewelry dealers at large antique shows. Both celluloid and bakelite are still being made. I have been told that celluloid is subject to explode if given a sharp blow and that's why celluloid billard balls were replaced by bakelite. The form of celluloid called French (or faux) ivory looks very much like ivory.
Sincerely,
RobT

14th July 2005, 08:45 PM	#1
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Well, now I really don't know Ian, I decided to drop those shards into salty water as described in the amber test page. One is about 1/2 inch by 1/4 inch. Big enough to sink. The other is slightly smaller. I even pushed them to the bottom of the cup. They sat there - until the salt dissolved completely. Then they both popped back to the top! So now I really don't know.

14th July 2005, 10:41 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Really Doubtful I'm having a hard time believing that this hilt material is amber in any form . I think we have all seen numerous examples of this type of hilt and from what I read from the links provided it just doesn't make sense that weapons hilted from this material (if amber) can sell for such a low price on the open market . If this stuff really is amber (even reconstituted) I would expect to see color variations but all I have seen is the same general color and opaqueness in every example . Large chunk amber is quite expensive and molding bits and pieces seems to be a fairly complicated process which would IMO require a much higher price as a material . Amber chunks : http://www.ambericawest.com/chunks.html Maybe it is this stuff which could be manufactured at a fairly simple level of technology : http://www.ambericawest.com/make_amber.html

15th July 2005, 03:46 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Some Guys Have All the Luck Nice score Derek ! Too damn nice , grrrrrrrr grumble . There is yet another 'amber' hilted jambiya just like yours and Artzi's currently being offered . Doesn't Aurangzeb have one of these too ? The one thing these hilts have in common is a consistancy of color and for a natural material like amber this strikes me as very un-natural . Maybe these hilts are being referred to as amber for their color and for lack of knowledge of what they really are made from . This is probably a silly question but have you tapped the hilt against your teeth ? Could it possibly be some kind of stone ?

16th July 2005, 04:32 AM	#8
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 551	celluloid or bakelite If I'm not mistaken celluloid is made up of layers of celluloid impregnated substrate. If that is correct, it would be unlikely to fracture as cleanly as your dagger hilt did. Bakelite however is a sort of proto plastic and fractures much the same as plastic. I would bet your hilt, if not a natural material, is bakelite. A cane collector (or better yet, a bakelite jewelry dealer) may be able to itentify the hilt material. There are usually many bakelite jewelry dealers at large antique shows. Both celluloid and bakelite are still being made. I have been told that celluloid is subject to explode if given a sharp blow and that's why celluloid billard balls were replaced by bakelite. The form of celluloid called French (or faux) ivory looks very much like ivory. Sincerely, RobT Last edited by RobT; 16th July 2005 at 04:36 AM. Reason: added info

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14th July 2005, 09:45 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Derek, My knowledge about amber it very little, although amber in this sizes like these is rare, and my knowledge about fake amber is even smaller, so I can’t help you out here, but to me the thing as a whole looks Indian. Although I must also say that it could be Arabian. Interesting knife.

15th July 2005, 12:48 AM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Could this be bakelite? http://www.deco-echoes.com/bakelite.html

15th July 2005, 12:52 AM	#5
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi Rick, I'm doubting it too, but if the example Artzi lists is in fact amber - I note the term amber like is very deliberately used - then this looks identical. I totally defer to others on this and I suspect you are right. Could be the floating piece is a fluke due to the small size of the sample. Is the amber in the links you included the "only kind" of amber? This stuff certainly looks nothing like it. BTW, I didn't mention what I paid but it was in fact pretty cheap! Having said, I just got a PAIR of ivory handled kukris for $80! It can happen...

15th July 2005, 06:10 AM	#7
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Thanks, Rick. I couldn't believe it, actually. I assumed they would be bone. I'm just trying to get lucky more than I get burned I'm pretty convinced its celluloid, but I wouldn't rule out anything, including bakelite.